Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 21 - SailNet Community
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post #201 of 5317 Old 07-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by seascene View Post
Smackdaddy... Winston built 2 Swains long before I built mine. I do not know about his costs and he built them himself. Mine was considerably more as there was 14 months labour to pay for.
That makes sense. Thanks sea.

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post #202 of 5317 Old 07-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

After seeing this quote from Brent in Bob's thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
If you check the origamiboats site you will find origami boats of a wide variety of shapes, wide sterns ,narrow sterns ,canoe stern, wide bows, narrow bows, deep deadrise , shallow deadrise, single chines ,multi chines, radiused chines, etc etc. The one shape myth is just that, a myth, began by Michael Kasten who knows so little about the subject that he continues to decree impossible what we have been doing since 1980; perpetuated by those who have little or no understanding of origami boat building and no experience with it ,who have done nothing to educate themselves on the subject .
I was curious who this Kasten dude was. So I found some of his stuff. Sounds like a pretty reasonable guy with some pretty good experience. He has a good breakdown of the different metal building methods (including Origami) here:

Frames First or Plating First...?

And though his conclusion was that the origami method was interesting and clever, it was, at the end of the day, not really all that.

Even so, he doesn't seem to be pushing any "myths". As for the shape issue, all he says is pretty much what Brent says above. From Kasten's article...

Quote:
In other words, variations to the hull shape are difficult and time consuming to create, so the vessels are limited to being either larger or smaller, fatter or more slender, taller or shorter, having more or less sheer, yet essentially the same in their general shape and appearance.

Further, it must be kept in mind that just as with the "pre-cut-plate" method, the "Folded-Plate" or Origami method is generally only applicable to the hull plating itself, and not to the keel, rudder, deck, superstructure, nor to the equipment, rig, joinery, systems, etc. In other words, though it should be accomplished as efficiently as possible, erecting the plating is only a small part of building the hull, and a very small part of the whole picture.
Sounds about right.

Some may wonder why I'm so interested in this. Well, it's pretty simple...I have a Degree in Architecture and worked in it for several years before I became an entrepreneur. I was always drawn to organic works by guys like the Saarinens, Utzon, etc. While I was in school, there was this "crazy dude" in our area who was building a house on a cliff overlooking a lake - completely out of steel...



I loved it. I was amazed by it. But I also understood that this thing was taking decades to get done...by a guy who knew exactly what he was doing.

So, I love the concept of origami boats. It's brilliant really. I just want to really, and honestly understand what it takes to do one, and do it well, by someone who knows little about the whole process (i.e. - the Wannabe Cruiser).
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 07-17-2013 at 07:14 PM.
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post #203 of 5317 Old 07-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
snip

Some may wonder why I'm so interested in this. Well, it's pretty simple...I have a Degree in Architecture and worked in it for several years before I became an entrepreneur. I was always drawn to organic works by guys like the Saarinens, Utzon, etc. While I was in school, there was this "crazy dude" in our area who was building a house on a cliff overlooking a lake - completely out of steel...

I loved it. I was amazed by it. But I also understood that this thing was taking decades to get done...by a guy who knew exactly what he was doing.
So, I love the concept of origami boats. It's brilliant really. I just want to really, and honestly understand what it takes to do one, and do it well, by someone who knows little about the whole process (i.e. - the Wannabe Cruiser).
.

Pretty cool Smack, pretty cool indeed though I'd rather it in the desert by a lake than on a cliff overlooking the ocean.

Its been said before but both from time and dollar cost building the hull apparently is the cheapest and easiest part of home/amateur building.

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post #204 of 5317 Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Smack ?Is that Corten? Remember when some thought that would put steel back in the picture at a level comparable to GRP. Too bad it didn't work out. When is someone gonna lay enough bucks on me to build in monel or titanium. (grin)

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post #205 of 5317 Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Yep, it's Corten as far as I know (and judging by the appearance).

What kills me is all the gorgeous curvilinear shapes combined with freakin' plastic vertical blinds. Talk about throwing in the design towel.

I also have always wondered if the whole thing "ticks" when it's cooling down in the evening.

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post #206 of 5317 Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

probably bings and bongs at dusk...
and is deafening in a rainstorm.

It's 5 o'clock somewhere:


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post #207 of 5317 Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I have the heaviest gauge steel roof we could found and it has never made a sound. Although we were warned that it would. It sounds nice in the rain. Maybe it just doesn't get hot enough here for it to be a problem.

I love that steel house. Hate the blinds. They muck the entire look up. It all looks so controlled until you see the blinds.

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post #208 of 5317 Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bitten on the bum by budgetary restraints perhaps ?

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post #209 of 5317 Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

My thoughts are this:
I respect BS's origami method. It's clever.
It gives a fair hull based on the constraints of the geometric method.
But it's all about the method.
BS doesn't like to talk about numbers. Why?
He has none.
He doesn't even know what the boat displaces until he is done shaping it.
He sure as hell doesn't have a clue as to the basis hydrostatic paramaters.
He doesn't like numbers.

Is this bad?
No.
The eye is the the final judge. Then the sea.
But why ignore a very powereful tool in shaping your boats. Numbers can allow us to compare one hull to the next in an objective way. I always trust my eye. But, I do not ignore the numbers.

BS reacts very defensively when numbers come up. That should tell you something. He has no numbers. He can't even produce a 2D weight study. He gets very angry when you ask for one. It is an essential Yacht Design 101 component of design.

Would you like me to post a weight study? I'd be proud to do it. It's boring stuff but essential if you are going to be in control of the boat your are "designing".

How many weight studies do you want to see?
The SLIVER project weight study woukld be a good, simple one to start with.

I am very proud of the fact that I do a thorough job of designing new boats. I want to look at my own work and say, ""Hey Bob, that is really good." You did it in a way that is recognized as good naval architecture by people who know naval architecture.

The results speak for themselves.

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post #210 of 5317 Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"The results speak for themselves."
Absolutely.Many examples of your work are here in SF Bay.I went on Valient 40 back in the 70's with my Father.He was seriously considering getting one after the Cal 33.My friend lives on one of your designs in Sausalito.Totaly comfortable,smart,well laid out boat.You galleys are the best Ive seen.You must cook.Brents problem is that he thinks he invented it all.That hes the only person who has ever 'got it'.That he has final solution.Maybe for brent.But he comes off as a totaly miserable recluse who has a chip on his shoulder.Origami construction is similer to cyclinder molded construction Kurt Hughes designs some of his multihulls for.Kurt tells you flat out that he cant really very acurately predict final shapes.He calls it 'seat of the pants' building.
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