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  #2101  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
I'd be more concerned by the lack of a mainsheet. Unrestrained, that boom could make a mighty dent in your skull!
Cameron, Cameron... everything's going wireless these days, don'tchaknow???
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  #2102  
Old 11-16-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
" in a way that the naïve, production boat market demands. "

Speaking of "dense", what does that have to do with 175 degrees of positive righting moment?

Still waiting for an in depth explanation of that BS.

I don't like ugly, crude boats. When I say "beauty in a workboat" I am talking about a well designed workboat where the elements of the aesthetics are controlled. The PNW is full of great examples.

I like beautiful boats that sail very well and make their owners happy.
Compare the dainty fragile look of this boat with the obvious toughness of Silas Crosby. No decorative dead vegetation on Silas Crosby.
That dead vegetation aft platform, with its tinfoil ladder looks mighty flimsy compared to the stainless, welded schedule 40 1inch pipe I use, attached to pad eyes welded to the hull.
Jim did the 175 degrees stability curves on his computer. Ballast one side of a beach ball, with a small ballast ration, and see if you can even get it to stay inverted in water. Tanton's 30 footer has a midship section much closer to that of a beach ball than a super beamy flush decker . The high cabintop camber drastically improves it's ultimate stability, if it has the proper airtight aluminium door I use, instead of the leaky ,outdated, sliding teak contraptions on Bob's designs.

On any other point of sailing but going to windward, that dodger is totally useless to anyone in the cockpit . It only protects the back of the cabin, and looks super flimsy compared to a wheelhouse. I'd feel like a pretentious fool, huddling behind that decorative contraption in bad BC weather, when I could be in a warm, dry, heated wheelhouse.
It's typical of what arm chair experts, with little winter cruising experience, mistakenly value, while sitting in their armchairs in their warm living rooms.
I don't know of any owners of my boats who would rather cruise in something more wet, fragile and pretentious, sacrificing comfort and safety for " style over substance."
The bow roller looks like a very poor design. It is the type which wont keep the rode in when side loaded as a boat tacks around her anchor, the kind which put so many boats on the beach in the Cabo 82 disaster . I saw many like that ripped out in Puerto Vallarta, after trying to raise their anchors at Isabella, when they were stuck under a sandstone slab in a swell.
Far better to slope the leading edge of a bow roller forward, so they will keep the rode in during a side load. Far better to make the roller far stronger than the biggest line that will run over it, especially in a vertical direction, from which it will be loaded when the anchor is fouled under a rock in a swell. Rather than run it long way forward, to keep the anchor clear of the topsides, I prefer a 1/8th inch stainless wear plate on the bow , behind the roller.
I see more cruise ships doing this now, after decades of having to paint the area every time they pulled into port. ( slow learners?)
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-16-2013 at 06:58 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

One more advantage of solid top lifelines is it makes the intermediate life line far less springy, with both top and bottom of stanchions supported.
For solid top lifelines. one can pre bend them before installing them. If you spring them in, then weld them, the heat from the weld can cause them to kink at each stanchion. Putting down a quarter inch tack at each stanchion, and letting each such tack cool completely, before putting another next to it, solves the problem to some degree. I have welded all the stanchions to the top rail before putting it on the boat, then putting it over short uprights amidships to let it swivel to take a fair curve. When you do that, you must make sure that each stanchion is welded to the top rail at the right angle, to match the sheer at that point. Other wise, with a great sheer, the stanchions in the ends will be anything but vertical.
Weld shrinkage kinks the top rail slightly down at each stanchion. Cutting a 2x4 an inch less than the height of the stanchion, and using it as a fulcrum off the decks, and using another 2x4 over it to pry the top lifeline straight, works to straighten it out, after welding.

1/4 inch 1x19 stainless rigging wire is best for intermediate lifelines. Used boaters exchanges are awash in the stuff, for cheap. It sure beats the plastic coated crap usually used on stock boats.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-16-2013 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 11-16-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Compare the dainty fragile look of this boat with the obvious toughness of Silas Crosby. No decorative dead vegetation on Silas Crosby.
That dead vegetation aft platform, with its tinfoil ladder looks mighty flimsy compared to the stainless, welded schedule 40 1inch pipe I use, attached to pad eyes welded to the hull.
Jim did the 175 degrees stability curves on his computer. Ballast one side of a beach ball, with a small ballast ration, and see if you can even get it to stay inverted in water. Tanton's 30 footer has a midship section much closer to that of a beach ball than a super beamy flush decker . The high cabintop camber drastically improves it's ultimate stability, if it has the proper airtight aluminium door I use, instead of the leaky ,outdated, sliding teak contraptions on Bob's designs.

On any other point of sailing but going to windward, that dodger is totally useless to anyone in the cockpit . It only protects the back of the cabin, and looks super flimsy compared to a wheelhouse. I'd feel like a pretentious fool, huddling behind that decorative contraption in bad BC weather, when I could be in a warm, dry, heated wheelhouse.
It's typical of what arm chair experts, with little winter cruising experience, mistakenly value, while sitting in their armchairs in their warm living rooms.
I don't know of any owners of my boats who would rather cruise in something more wet, fragile and pretentious, sacrificing comfort and safety for " style over substance."
One thing I have to give you Brent. You are pretty funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I'd feel like a pretentious fool...
You can go ahead and take off the 'd.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-16-2013 at 06:52 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent.. You have your tiny utilitarian niche, and good on you.. But denigrating this heartbreakingly pretty design does you no credit whatsoever. I seriously doubt there's going to be anything 'dainty' about this boat when it's done.. And equally sure there won't be anything 'coarse' about it either.

But Smacks right.. In the end we can only laugh..
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
On any other point of sailing but going to windward, that dodger is totally useless to anyone in the cockpit . It only protects the back of the cabin, and looks super flimsy compared to a wheelhouse. I'd feel like a pretentious fool, huddling behind that decorative contraption in bad BC weather, when I could be in a warm, dry, heated wheelhouse
Looks much better here in San Diego where pilothouses and plastic greenhouses on sailboats are pretty non-sensical. As for dainty and fragile, I personally prefer boats that swim well over those capable of amphibious maneuvers.
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  #2107  
Old 11-16-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I wouldn't let the "dainty" look of this design fool you. For starters it's not designed for "bad BC weather" It's a custpm boat for an East Coaster. Can't you read? This will be a very strong boat. See Brent you can't let outward appearences fool you. It's so superficial. You have zero idea of ths boat's scantlings. Yes, it will take quite a bit of upkeep to keep it looking good but my client is well heeled and keeps his current boat Bristol. I suspect he will do the same with this boat. If you are worried about the cost of upkeep I don't think this boat is for you. You could build two BS boats for the cost of the design fee on this one. A lot of time went into the transom corner chocks. It's details like this that I obsess over on custom project where I can control almost everything.


I can draw rugged boats. I'll paste a few if you like. I can do rugged with my eyes closed. But Brent you can't design beautiful if your life depended on it. This level of naval architecture combined with art is beyond your efforts. So quit being jealous. Just enjoy looking at my work and be happy that none of my clients will ever be interested in your work. I am not a threat to you. Chill. Relax. Enjoy.
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Last edited by bobperry; 11-16-2013 at 07:40 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

It's such a great design I can't resist posting more images.





Just don't look if it bothers you Brent. I bet it bothers you a lot. HTFU.
By the way we changed the toe rail over the transom yesterday. We made it solid as you can see in the pic in the previous post. I didn't like the look of the elevated rail. I'm a nit picker when it comes to my work.
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Last edited by bobperry; 11-16-2013 at 07:46 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDW View Post
As one of the other participants on bd.net, I'd have to say I'm more amused than anything else.

One of the things I've had a wonderful laugh about at Brent's expense is his utterly ludicrous claim that his steel 31' sailboat can break through 5" thick ice.

Only if dropped from a substantial height....

Brent is a fantasist who actually seems to believe his own BS. He stopped posting on bd.net because nobody was accepting his stories for fact. It's all on record over there. The tissue of outright lies & distortions Mike quotes above is just a small example of the crap Brent has posted in the past, got shot down in flames and then re-posted somewhere else. He's incapable of learning anything new or accepting that he may not always be right.

PDW
If we get some 5 inch ice this winter I will show you, after you put a couple of hundred down on a bet.
On bd.net they claimed my boats, with the photos of one surviving 16 days in huge surf on the west coast of Baja, posted by the guy who sailed her home from that trip, were not strong enough. One such critic then went out and bought his" much stronger" plastic cal. He still hasn't accepted my challenge of a demolition derby against my "far too weak" origami boat. So he obviously doesn't believe his on bull! Does Smackdaddy want a demolition derby in his "Much Stronger" Hunter? Another who doesn't really believe his own bull.They claimed that Don Shore, who pounded across 300 yards of Fijian Coral reef then was pulled back across it by a tug , was lying, despite his having many witness around , all of whom they called liars, and covering the story in his book "Around the World on Viski " ( a great read )
Anyone backing me up, including Canadian Coast Guard staff, were accused of being me. They claim to know more about the incident that those who were actually there! So who are the real liars?
They claim calculations based on false rules, which ignore many very relevant factors, are reality, while decades of actual experience are simply anecdotes, implying that calculations are more accurate than actual experience. That is as credible as suggesting that tomorrows weather forecasts can be more accurate than yesterdays weather records! So who are the real liars?
They claimed that fragile plastic thru hulls were better than welded in stainless pipe nipples, which have given me zero trouble in over 30 years, nor anyone else who has used them for far longer.
Wynand was the only one there with any actual, significant amount of boat building experience. When I asked about their cruising experience, he was the only one who answered. He admitted his experience was only limited coastal cruising experience. The rest obviously had none, or they would have certainly crowed about it. Wynand, after criticizing my designs for lack of transverse frames , admitted to having built Dix designs frameless, and posted one on the origamiboats site. He also stated that 3 windward shrouds( 12,000 lbs tensile strength each ) were capable of crushing a steel side deck inwards, (tensile strength 60,000 psi)
Pete Wiley , starting is first ever steel boat project , a design several of my clients have upgraded from, immediately claimed to know more about boatbuilding than someone who had built dozens of them over decades.
One thing all of my critics there had in common. Almost zero steel boat building and long term cruising experience, and a complete inability to understand the effect of shape on structural strength, and a complete inability to comprehend stresses in three dimensional shapes. Thus, they are completely incapable of comprehending anything new in steel boat design, or the use of shape to acquire stiffness.
That site has been completely sabotaged into uselessness, by about a half dozen inexperienced, dense , armchair attack mob, who understand very little about steel boats, and who are incapable of understanding anything new or innovative, so only respond by attacking any suggestion of anything new or innovative .
Some spoke of the need for :"good engineering" . I think "engineering" can be defined as " The judicious application of logic". I gave pages of engineering logic in all these debates. If you want good engineering, you depend on the guy offering a lot of logic, not on someone who automatically , and impulsively attacks logic, without replying to the points of logic made; attacks with childish jeering, without bothering to read the logic offered. I am beginning to see more of that here.
Logic is not valued, nor even allowed in the long run, on that site, rendering it quite useless as a source of good, reliable information.

Breaking thru 5 inch ice takes me a run of many yards, to about 4 .5 knots on impact. The boat rides up over it, then crushes down thru about three feet of it per run. Almost vertical topsides doesn't work, as it meets the ice almost at 90 degrees, which impacts it on end, stopping the boat with far thinner ice.. My current boat has more of an ice breaker bow shape enabling it to climb on top. My last boat didn't and a half inch of ice would stop her.

What do you call someone, who claims to be an engineer , yet who claims that shape has little or no effect on stiffness and strength ( kinda like claiming that pipe, I beam , or square tubing has exactly the same strength and stiffness as a flat bar with the same an mount of material in it)

You call him a LIAR!
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-18-2013 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 11-16-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Compare the dainty fragile look of this boat with the obvious toughness of Silas Crosby..... I'd feel like a pretentious fool, huddling behind that decorative contraption in bad BC weather, when I could be in a warm, dry, heated wheelhouse.
It's typical of what arm chair experts, with little winter cruising experience, mistakenly value, while sitting in their armchairs in their warm living rooms.
...( slow learners?)
Brent at his worst. That is true that Bob has been provocative regards your designs even if he had admitted that some hulls looked good and the boats were strong and functional. That is a lot more than you are able to do regarding any other type of design that not the only type you design.

It seems that you don't understand that 95% of the recreational sailors have not any interest in sailing in the winter, in stormy weather or really cold climates. Most of us prefer to sit at the fireplace when the winter blows hard and cold. That make us armchair sailors? No, just sailors that don't like to sail in very disagreeable conditions. Professionals cannot chose, we can.

Most sailors also like to sail fast in responsive boats that can deliver a lot of sailing pleasure and offer beauty to the eyes, a boat that they can love.

There is nothing wrong with your boats and I am sure they are suited for what they are designed for.... but your incapacity to understand that, regarding the sailing community, the ones that are interested in what your boats can offer (by opposition of what offer other types of boats) are a very tiny minority, is quite distressing.

Regards

Paulo
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