Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 215 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1689Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #2141  
Old 11-18-2013
SloopJonB's Avatar
Senior Moment Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 10,665
Thanks: 56
Thanked 48 Times in 45 Posts
Rep Power: 4
SloopJonB will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
No bow roller of any kind on this one. How dense is that? How big an anchor do you plan to use? How do you plan tom get it aboard, without dinging the fancy, pretentious stuff?
Brent, at one time I found your method of boatbuilding intriguing but you really are getting tiresome. You aren't convincing anyone here of the "rightness" of your cause, you are only irritating everyone with your "Jehovah's Witness" zeal.

Time once again for you to anchor out away from Internet access I think.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2142  
Old 11-18-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,331
Thanks: 19
Thanked 32 Times in 31 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I just checked out some Garhauer blocks. The becket has a total of an inch of 14 gauge stainless, at 95,000 psi, tensile strength 7500 pounds. My blocks , if given an inch wide 3/16th aluminium becket at 45,000 psi, have a tensile strength of 8437 lbs. The 3/16th inch shackles on a Garhauer block has a tensile strength of 1655 per side, for a total of 3311 lbs, the weakest point . While the bearing is super strong, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. One can easily go wider on the becket on my blocks, which I usually do, something you can't do on a commercially made block. What they sell is what you get.
Checked out some Harken, Lewmar and Schafer blocks. Only tiny bits of metal holding them together, especially the beckets. Nowhere near as strong as mine , not even near s strong as a Garhaur
I don't anticipate any similar calculations from Steve ( Smackdaddy ) . Just more adolescent jeering .
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-19-2013 at 03:22 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2143  
Old 11-18-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,589
Thanks: 1
Thanked 72 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I have seen your drawings Brent. I'd ask you to post some more but I don't think I want to look at them. They are crude at best and display very effectively your lack of design talent. But if you have some drawings you are proud of please, by all means post them.

I saw one of your boats posted here and I really liked it. But I give all credit to the builder, the client and not you. They managed a nice boat depsite your lack of design help. Interestingly it was missing a lot of the BS "special touches".

" Shafhauer blocks?" I have never heard of those. Could you direct me to a web site so I can see some. You didn't mean Garhauer did you?

"back when I was extremely naive " Classic BS.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2144  
Old 11-18-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,331
Thanks: 19
Thanked 32 Times in 31 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Brent, at one time I found your method of boatbuilding intriguing but you really are getting tiresome. You aren't convincing anyone here of the "rightness" of your cause, you are only irritating everyone with your "Jehovah's Witness" zeal.

Time once again for you to anchor out away from Internet access I think.
Are you suggesting that not having a bow roller on a boat should never be questioned? Is this what they get from you for $150 an hour? How many other inadequacies do you suggest ,should be hidden, to avoid being accused of being "Tiresome?" You suggest that none of your screw ups should ever be questioned? Wouldn't it be better for you to not make them, or to correct them in the first place?
Seeing people trying to cruise in grossly inadequate boats is very tiresome, a problem created by the "tiresome" who design , build and sell such boats, while trying to hide their inadequacies from buyers.. Warning people of their inadequacies is no doubt 'Tiresome " to those trying to hide such inadequacies from potential buyers of what they are selling, and pull a fast one on them.
I'm sure the auto industry found Ralph Nader's warnings about the inadequacies of what they were selling "Tiresome."
Would you suggest that he should have not bothered to warn the public, and just let their victims die , to avoid being accused of being "Tiresome?"

Nice to know where you are coming from.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2145  
Old 11-18-2013
Thanks Courtney.
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: IL
Posts: 3,954
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 10
T34C has a spectacular aura about T34C has a spectacular aura about T34C has a spectacular aura about
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Geee Brent it's hard to imagine why you've been kicked out of every other forum you've ever joined...
__________________
hunter Legend 37 Semper Paratus
Formerly - Tartan 34C Yawl
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2146  
Old 11-18-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,589
Thanks: 1
Thanked 72 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent:
you are being silly again. The boat has had a bow roller from day one. It's all there on the drawings. I do produce drawings. It's part of our ultra expensive cast 316 s.s.s stem fitting. Pretty much a clone of the system Hinckley has used for years, effective and attractive. It's been there for anyone to see who has followed the thread. We are going to 3D print it and cast it from the 3D part. That's new and exciting for me.






I understand if you can't produce a drawing you probably can't read one either but these renderings should be plain even to you.

I think Brent has run off. He's trying to find Schafhauer blocks. He did check them out. They must exist.

I think he is confused with Professor Schaffhausen from the movie DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS, one of my favs.

I'm sure you are amazed at the beauty of this design Brent but don't tell me. Flattery will get you nowhere.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 11-18-2013 at 08:14 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2147  
Old 11-18-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,021
Thanks: 82
Thanked 75 Times in 69 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I just checked out some Shafhauer blocks. The becket has a total of an inch of 14 gauge stainless, at 95,000 psi, tensile strength 7500 pounds. My blocks , if given an inch wide 3/16th aluminium becket at 45,000 psi, have a tensile strength of 8437 lbs. The 3/16th inch shackle s on a Shafhauer block has a tensile strength of 1655 per side, for a total of 3311 lbs, the weakest point . While the bearing is super strong, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. One can easily go wider on the becket on my blocks, which I usually do, something you can't do on a commercially made block. What they sell is what you get.
Checked out some Harken, Lewmar and Schafer blocks. Only tiny bits of metal holding them together, especially the beckets.
I don't anticipate any similar calculations from Steve ( Smackdaddy ) . Just more adolescent jeering .
Sigh. It doesn't take adolescent jeering, Brent. Just facts.

From your enlightening treatise:

BS Yachts Marketing Program

+++++++++Here is my first post on the blocks after I finally found the photos.++++++++++++++

Finally! I found those pics of the $2 blocks Brent was talking about:

Quote:
Make your own block and test it. It only takes 20 minutes and $2 worth of materials.

The cheeks of a sheet block can be easily jig sawed out of 3/16th aluminium scrap. Some use spacers which can be made out of pipe , on the becket end, to space them the same as the width of the sheave. I prefer to leave the two cheeks attached by a strip of 3/4 inch wide aluminium, then bend it 180 degrees to make the becket. These cheeks should be sanded very smooth and well rounded to eliminate chafe.
Then it' s simply a matter of running a 3/8th ss bolt thru the sheave to make up the block.
You can make up sheaves by running a hole saw thru a sheet of plastic , such as a cutting board. Micarta, salvaged from electrical panels makes even better sheaves which will last several lifetimes. Black plastic is far more UV resistance , if you can find it.
After hole sawing it out, you put a carriage bolt thru it and put it in a drill chuck. Then you use a vise and machine the groove in it , using the drill like a lathe.
You can use a spacer to make a double block, or put different sized sheaves in line, like the yachtie blocks.
While I think bearings are a gimmick , if you insist , you can make the hole in the sheave a half inch wider than the bolt, then stack bits of 1/4 inch rod , made out of any material you like, around the pin and viola, roller bearings.
I have made a single block this way, using only hand tools in 20 minutes, a far stronger and more reliable block than most of the super expensive "Yachtie " blocks people get conned out of large sums of money for. A billionaire can't buy a better block for any amount of money. It takes less time to build one than it takes to travel to the ship swindler and buy a block .
Yet another of many examples of how building your own produces a far better product than the cheque book delivers.
Last edited by Brent Swain; 10-17-2011 at 04:35 PM.




I assume these are from his own boat - which starts to give some small indication of its condition. I guess we all have different measures of "perfection".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
As you can see, they are in perfect condition, with zero wear or corrosion after 29 years , and many Pacific crossings. If you want "shiny" you can do it in minutes with a brillo pad on a grinder. That has never been a priority for me. I prefer to concentrate on structurally and functionally sound. I have no interest in impressing anyone but the practical.

Thanks for posting these Smack. They make my point.
I then offered to buy one of his blocks for $11 (half the price of the $22 Garhauer, and 500% more than his cost to make it) and test them both to destruction as he's laid out below in the next post. Still no luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
A friend sailed to New Zealand and back, with stock "yachty" style blocks. They had black anodized aluminium cheeks with stainless straps over them. The corrosion between the SS and the aluminium swelled the cheeks tight against the sheaves, causing them to freeze solid, in such a brief, one year trip. That is the kind of perfectionism Smack advocates. As long as it has a brand name on it, it must be perfect. My blocks have had no problems in decades . That is my definition of perfection, not decorative priorities over reliability. I still see those failed blocks for sale in yachty stores ,for high prices, for those "knuckleheads "gullible enough to judge marine hardware by the price tag and it's decorativeness. I see some lewmar blocks with 1/4 inch stainless shackles with 1/4 inch pins, and flimsy plastic cheeks , for $40 each.
How does the high price tag and brand name make plastic and tiny shackles stronger than the amount of metal holding my blocks together? How dose the tiny amount of stainless around the shackle pin get strengthened to more than the amount of aluminium in the beckets on my blocks, by adding a brand name and high price tag? They give the safe working load at 900 lbs, a fraction the strength of the half inch line going over it. I believe all blocks, cleats and mooring bitts should be stronger than the biggest line that will be used on them. That is simply good seamanship ( unlike what Smack advocates|)
You can easily make a strength comparision between my blocks and commercially made blocks . Just tie a loop of rope around a tree and the other end to the becket of one. Then tie another loop of half inch Dacron around the two blocks and tie the other becket to the back bumper of a car, with lots of slack . Then get in the car and put the pedal to the metal, and see which one breaks first. If your theory holds, then you believe that mine will break first, and you will be out 20 minutes and $2. So why don't you try it? Because you know full well that your commercially made block wont stand a hope in hell!
What is your theory on that? Or do you simply believe that mother nature is kinder, and more gentle, to materials which look like something out of a blister pack from a yachty store?
Didn't know mother nature was that consumer biased .
I’m still waiting for my BrentBlock so I can do the test he lays out above. So far - he hasn’t delivered.
chall03 and chucklesR like this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-18-2013 at 08:43 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2148  
Old 11-18-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,163
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
No bow roller of any kind on this one. How dense is that? How big an anchor do you plan to use? How do you plan tom get it aboard, without dinging the fancy, pretentious stuff?
Look, another one without a bow roller and these guys were stupid enough to build the boat and forget the dam thing



Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2149  
Old 11-18-2013
SloopJonB's Avatar
Senior Moment Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 10,665
Thanks: 56
Thanked 48 Times in 45 Posts
Rep Power: 4
SloopJonB will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Are you suggesting that not having a bow roller on a boat should never be questioned? Is this what they get from you for $150 an hour? How many other inadequacies do you suggest ,should be hidden, to avoid being accused of being "Tiresome?" You suggest that none of your screw ups should ever be questioned? Wouldn't it be better for you to not make them, or to correct them in the first place?
Seeing people trying to cruise in grossly inadequate boats is very tiresome, a problem created by the "tiresome" who design , build and sell such boats, while trying to hide their inadequacies from buyers.. Warning people of their inadequacies is no doubt 'Tiresome " to those trying to hide such inadequacies from potential buyers of what they are selling, and pull a fast one on them.
I'm sure the auto industry found Ralph Nader's warnings about the inadequacies of what they were selling "Tiresome."
Would you suggest that he should have not bothered to warn the public, and just let their victims die , to avoid being accused of being "Tiresome?"

Nice to know where you are coming from.
I am able to recognize a preliminary rendering for what it is - preliminary. Do you also assume the boat will have no mainsheet?

Your comparison to Nader is very apropos - he was a one track messiah who was mostly full of $hit as well. The difference is he had a huge audience of ignoramuses to buy into his cr@p whereas you are preaching to a knowledgeable and experienced audience
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2150  
Old 11-18-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,163
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Brent:
you are being silly again. The boat has had a bow roller from day one. It's all there on the drawings. I do produce drawings. It's part of our ultra expensive cast 316 s.s.s stem fitting. Pretty much a clone of the system Hinckley has used for years, effective and attractive. It's been there for anyone to see who has followed the thread. We are going to 3D print it and cast it from the 3D part. That's new and exciting for me.






....
Bob, I find that ugly. That boat deserves a fold in system. The black boat I posted some posts back is a big Hanse and has the system.

Some years ago when Hanse was young they provided the system as option on smaller boats and I had tried it. It works like a charm. It is balanced in a way that you can rotate it with the anchor included with no force at all and it goes slow and smoothly to its position.

I guess they stop using it on smaller boats because it is expensive and gives work to mount properly.

I don't believe they make the system. It is on the market for sure.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 9 (1 members and 8 guests)
dbrimm
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hunter 36 Pros and Cons? turfguy Hunter 15 5 Days Ago 05:08 PM
C & C 24 pros and cons chuckg Boat Review and Purchase Forum 11 04-06-2012 12:45 AM
Pros and Cons of Catalina 350?? turfguy C350 6 10-16-2009 05:17 PM
Watermakers—Pros and Cons Tom Wood Cruising Articles 0 06-11-2002 08:00 PM
Steel Hulls—Pros and Cons Sue & Larry Buying a Boat Articles 0 09-12-2001 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:11 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.