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  #2271  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

For the record, between this thread and others Brent has attacked children, marriage, drinking, all boats other than his own etc. I would almost believe that the Brent Swain seen on sailing forums is actually someone else that actually HATES Brent and is using these threads to destroy his otherwise good name. As the real BS hates all things technical he never gets online and sees that a doppleganger is doing all he (or she) can to ruin him.

It is really hard to believe one person could make the conflicting statements made and really believe them. Reads much more like a caricature.

Brent, others are criticizing your ideas on sailing, design etc. You turn around and attack their honor. As someone that lives and sails among glaciers and poorly mapped areas, a steel boat would actually be ideal. But after reading your posts, I would simply go find another design. Again, steel isn't the problem here.

This thread started as a "pros and cons of steel sailboats" but has become the pros and cons of BS sailboats vs the greedy criminals that would dare sell you something else. Gee, can't imagine how this went off the rails.
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Last edited by AlaskaMC; 11-24-2013 at 05:15 PM.
  #2272  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yeah, and the best part was that because the boat isn't BS Steel, I was able to keep the whole thing nice and toasty with a tiny electric ceramic heater (1500 watts). I wasn't continuously belching pollution into the atmosphere - like the Chinese and Brent Swain - with a "roaring" wood stove. Why, I didn't even have to chop any wood! I just plugged the damn thing in!

I wish Brent cared more about our fragile environment. Every man needs to do his part to reduce his carbon footprint a bit.
Burning wood has the same environmental foot print as the methane which would be produced by letting it rot. So a wood stove is environmentaly neutral. Where does the power for your electric heater come from? Coal powered generating plants? Burning stuff which would otherwise remain burried, is the problem. Friends, who use oil stoves have used up to $290 dollars a month to heat their GRP boats , roughly my entire cost of living. They have been working since their 20s, I have been semi retired.
That is the difference in results, between the two choices. So how soon did your choices ( the ones you advocate) enable you to semi retire?
I find picking firewood off a beach far more enjoyable than going to work 5 days a week to pay Exon and other oil companies, or the coal industry ( and far more environmentaly responsible).
Check out Sea Scene's post. What he failed to mention is that he built one of my 36 footers, then moved off his wet, leaky and cold GRP boat, and said his Brentboat is the most warm, dry and comfortable home he has ever lived in.
Another friend moved off his GRP boat and onto his new Brentboat last night, and said for the first time in a long time, he spent the night warm and dry.
Steve . Would you be just as comfortable underway, if you chose to leave the dock and go cruising in your plastic boat? Not many places to plug a heater in while at anchor, or underway.
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  #2273  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent- It's a shame those folks had lousy GRP boats. There are so many good ones out there. Just came back from my boat ( have to work tomorrow). Have several sources of heat but just turned on the webasco. Wife likes it cooler then me. She was in the forward master stateroom while I had the thermostat set higher in the saloon. We have a solid glass hull but a layer of insulation was glassed in during construction and the deck is divinycell cored so it has a real high R factor from the get go. It's been freezing rain the last few days up here and today was dry but with 25F and very strong winds. The boat was warm snug and dry. Quiet as a mouse down below. GRP boats, Al boats, wood boats and even Fe boats can all be warm, snug and dry. Realize only wood of the materials mentioned is naturally a good insulator. All the others including yours depend on added materials. Wonder if given steel is a very good thermal conductor if you run into issues with condensation. Especially around the port lights. Also wonder if your weather is as variable as it is up here in New England do you have issues with thermal expansion/contraction working the boat and its fittings? Are there any special techniques in construction required to allow for this issue? Glass, even cored glass doesn't have this concern from what I understand in my limited knowledge.
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  #2274  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaMC View Post
For the record, between this thread and others Brent has attacked children, marriage, drinking, all boats other than his own etc. I would almost believe that the Brent Swain seen on sailing forums is actually someone else that actually HATES Brent and is using these threads to destroy his otherwise good name. As the real BS hates all things technical he never gets online and sees that a doppleganger is doing all he (or she) can to ruin him.

It is really hard to believe one person could make the conflicting statements made and really believe them. Reads much more like a caricature.

Brent, others are criticizing your ideas on sailing, design etc. You turn around and attack their honor. As someone that lives and sails among glaciers and poorly mapped areas, a steel boat would actually be ideal. But after reading your posts, I would simply go find another design. Again, steel isn't the problem here.

This thread started as a "pros and cons of steel sailboats" but has become the pros and cons of BS sailboats vs the greedy criminals that would dare sell you something else. Gee, can't imagine how this went off the rails.
I got attacked by plastic boat advocates any time I gave any of the pros of any steel boats, mostly by those who have a financial stake in listing only cons, people who have no experience in steel boats, cruising long term, maintaining or building in steel. They simply dont want cruisers know the pros. The question was pros and cons of steel boats ,not just cons. Without my contributions, the only ones based on actual extensive steel boat experience, only the cons would have been listed.

However the percentage of steel boats cruising the South Pacifc has steadly increased ,to the point where, in some anchorages, over 60 % of the long term cruisers are in steel boats, while many of the rest wish they were.
Meanwhile, their critics are going to work daily ,telling them that they are doing it all wrong.
In Tahiti, in the late 70's, I read an article by Ted Brewer . Even then he said requests for steel designs in three years had grown from a handful to a huge number. Back then, a large percentage of the cruising boats in Tahiti were steel, especially European boats.
So the disinformation campaign is not working, on those with actual experience in long term voyaging, and those with the wisdom to listen to them, rather than to armchair experts...

Go ahead ,build who ever's design you want. I don't give a rat's ass whether you buy my plans or not. I have no interest in doing anything for anyone who wants to tell me what opinions I may or may not express, not for any amount of money. My plans are a design service for those who seek a more practical way of building, not a baby sitting service for those who refuse to figure things out, or who get their advice from those who have zero steel boat experience, and who would rather sell you plastic. I'd rater not deal with you; there are enough practical, intelligent people to keep me as busy as I want to be (or more than I want to be). Just tell me where you are building ,so I can sit in the shade and watch you do months of needless extra work , all because my defense of practical steel boats bugs you.

I have never attacked children, just the making of too many of them, at the expense of those who are already here. Children who grew up cruising with me can confirm that.

Marriage? Who hasn't made a derogatory comment about that? What percentage of the human population? Only liars can make that claim.

Drinking? Yes drinking is dense, period! I stand by that. Glorification of drinking has cost far too many lives already, and caused far too much misery, especially for children.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-25-2013 at 07:33 PM.
  #2275  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Seems you are just an all round hater Brent.

Me? I'd like to sit down and chat with anyone who loves boats. I'm a boat lover. Workboats, yachts, powerboats, dinghies, I just like boats. I try hard not to be judgemental towards the owners. I work at taking each person for who they are and not what they sail. You seem to have distilled judgmentalism down to a way of life. You make sweeping generalizations on the character of peolpe by the boats they sail, by what material their boats are made of, by who built the boat, by who designed their boat. Amazing. Meaning, if it's not a BS boat (I love it) then the boat is no good and the owners are no good. They are fools. You have said it time and again. The myopic world of BS. (I know you are etymogically challenged Brent but you can Google it.)

That is what I call ignorance. You do it superbly, over and over.
I have nothing against your boats.
I think little of you.
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  #2276  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Brent- It's a shame those folks had lousy GRP boats. There are so many good ones out there. Just came back from my boat ( have to work tomorrow). Have several sources of heat but just turned on the webasco. Wife likes it cooler then me. She was in the forward master stateroom while I had the thermostat set higher in the saloon. We have a solid glass hull but a layer of insulation was glassed in during construction and the deck is divinycell cored so it has a real high R factor from the get go. It's been freezing rain the last few days up here and today was dry but with 25F and very strong winds. The boat was warm snug and dry. Quiet as a mouse down below. GRP boats, Al boats, wood boats and even Fe boats can all be warm, snug and dry. Realize only wood of the materials mentioned is naturally a good insulator. All the others including yours depend on added materials. Wonder if given steel is a very good thermal conductor if you run into issues with condensation. Especially around the port lights. Also wonder if your weather is as variable as it is up here in New England do you have issues with thermal expansion/contraction working the boat and its fittings? Are there any special techniques in construction required to allow for this issue? Glass, even cored glass doesn't have this concern from what I understand in my limited knowledge.
Yes, a GRP boat can be well insulated and thus warm and dry .Unfortunately few are. A friend used a sprayfoam kit, looked like a couple of propane bottles you hook together, to sprayfoam his GRP boat. He said it was easy to use ,and made a huge difference. He also hired me to build him a wood stove, to eliminate his $200 a month fuel budget. Deck leaks are far more common on GRP boats. Having lived under a plywood deck on my first boat, which was sometimes coated with ice ,inside, I can asure you that wood is no match for foam, when it comes to insulating properties.Then there's the inevitable leaks.
BC weather is probably a lot like your weather.
A week or two of arctic outflow, below freezing at night , some times thru the day, then a big low comes in and its pinapple express, wind directly from Hawaii for a couple of weeks, about 40 degrees F and tons of rain.
I haven't had any problems with condensation . When I cook, can or heat up a cold boat ,condensation forms on my ports. As soon as I stop cooking ,the wood stove heats and dries the boat out ,and the condensation disappears. Having lots of insulation and a wood stove makes all the difference. I haven't had any problems with differences in expansion. When I asked my father ,a lifetime steam engineer, how much expansion a hot exhaust pipe would have, he said " At 1100 degrees, about a quarter inch in 15 feet". So I don't think we have to worry about it in the temperatures we are dealing with.
For ports, if you push white styrofoam or ethafoam in, in a tight fit ,you get about the same amount of light thru them, with excellent insulation. Works for skylights too.
Time to go do the laundry (a day at the soap opera)
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-25-2013 at 07:46 PM.
  #2277  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Puritanism
The terrible, nagging fear that someone, somewhere, just might be having a good time


Like anyone with a non-ferrous boat? Especially one with a glass of scotch?

Think about it Brent.
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I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.

Last edited by SloopJonB; 11-24-2013 at 06:22 PM.
  #2278  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I am always concerned about not being able to see the inside of the hull. I have a pal who is a Bristol Bay fisherman with a beautiful alu fish boat. He says he has to rip out his foam every three years and replace it because it gets soaked. Not sure if "soaked" is the word he used. But he says it is an awful job and must be done. I know steel boats can rust from the inside out. Had a friend with a beautiful Dutch built steel boat. He had rust problems from the inside out. I'd like to be able to see what the inside of my hull skin was doing.

Care to educate me when you are done with the laundry Brent. I would would be sincerely interested in your view on this.

I like my laundry room. I can cook, clean, watch footy on the telly and all the while be doing my laundry. I do separate the whites. I'm a whizz at laundry. I don't even let my wife do it. I'm a laundry Nazi.

A classic case of "projecting":
"The terrible, nagging fear that someone, somewhere, just might be having a good time"

I hope that everyone is having a good time.
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  #2279  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Burning wood has the same environmental foot print as the methane which would be produced by letting it rot. So a wood stove is environmentaly neutral. Where does the power for your electric heater come from? Coal powered generating plants? Burning stuff which would otherwise remain burried, is the problem.
Ah, yes, more BS/inaccuracies/whoppers.

Here, let me help you out:

http://des.nh.gov/organization/commi...nts/ard-36.pdf

Quote:
The Problem: Smoke from Wood Stoves is a Public Health Risk

The smoke produced from woodstoves and fireplaces contains over 100 different chemical compounds, many of which are harmful and potentially carcinogenic. Wood smoke pollutants include fine particulates, nitrogen oxides, sulfur oxides, carbon monoxide, volatile organic compounds, dioxins, and furans. Breathing air containing wood smoke can cause a number of serious respiratory and cardiovascular health problems. Those at greatest health risk from wood smoke include infants, children, pregnant women, the elderly, and those suffering from allergies, asthma, bronchitis, emphysema, pneumonia, or any other heart or lung disease.
Or this...

Smoke from wood fireplaces, stoves raises new health concerns ? Environmental Health News

Quote:
“We found that wood smoke PM has similar toxicity and effects on DNA as that of vehicle exhaust particles,” said University of Copenhagen researcher Steffen Loft, who led a new study of air pollution from wood stoves.
I mean, believe what you want, Brent - but you can't just keep making stuff up and presenting it as fact. That's what we call BS, or environmental denial, or as Buddy tells the fake Santa...



As for where my electricity comes from...I pay about $4/month for what we use. And, building on what you try to claim about how the steel in your boat(s) is only a minuscule part of the incredibly environmentally-destructive process of mining, processing, treating, shipping, welding, etc. steel (you know, messing with stuff that would otherwise remain buried) - whatever way that electricity gets to my little 1500 watt heater will ALWAYS be cleaner than ANY of your methods. I care about the environment. I just wish you would too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Friends, who use oil stoves have used up to $290 dollars a month to heat their GRP boats , roughly my entire cost of living. They have been working since their 20s, I have been semi retired.
That is the difference in results, between the two choices. So how soon did your choices ( the ones you advocate) enable you to semi retire?
I find picking firewood off a beach far more enjoyable than going to work 5 days a week to pay Exon and other oil companies, or the coal industry ( and far more environmentaly responsible).
I'm semi-retired. I have a very nice balance of work and fun. I love my work and have fun doing it, but I'm doing less of it because I love having more and more fun elsewhere. So, I have absolutely no complaints.

Have fun with your deadly firewood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Steve . Would you be just as comfortable underway, if you chose to leave the dock and go cruising in your plastic boat? Not many places to plug a heater in while at anchor, or underway.
Well, two things...first, I have a generator so I can plug in anything I want. I think you're mixing up my very well-equipped boat with your obviously very ill-equipped boat.

But at the end of the day, I have absolutely no desire to be cold and miserable in any circumstance. That's why I live in and sail to warm places.

But, hey, if cold misery makes you as happy as you seem to be, stay right where you are.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-26-2013 at 09:59 AM.
  #2280  
Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

When I was a wee lad my pappy sat me down and said; "Plastics, son that is the future.We must eradicate the steel boat from the earth.It is an abomination and a threat to our way of life. Any time you hear your friends talking about steel boats, dissuade from there foolish ways.We cant have every tom dick and harry out there on our pristine ocean having fun.That would be terrible".Thus was born the massive dis-information campaign against steel boats and Joe sixpack enjoying his early retirement.
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