Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 229 - SailNet Community
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post #2281 of 5317 Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Picking up wet firewood from the beach is more fun than you might think.
Or not. Wet firewood?

I live on the beach. The beach is covered in wood. It gets wet. Really wet.
BS would need a shed built on the back of his boat for his firewood. This I know. This is where I live. Picking up wood off the beach for the eveneing's fire is a myth. Pure BS.

I have two nice Jotul Norwegian fireplaces, one in the living room and one in the master bedroom. I do not burn beach wood in them. Too much salt. Too much corrosion. I have one fireplace going now. It is nice.

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post #2282 of 5317 Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by jak3b View Post
When I was a wee lad my pappy sat me down and said; "Plastics, son that is the future.We must eradicate the steel boat from the earth.It is an abomination and a threat to our way of life. Any time you hear your friends talking about steel boats, dissuade from there foolish ways.We cant have every tom dick and harry out there on our pristine ocean having fun.That would be terrible".Thus was born the massive dis-information campaign against steel boats and Joe sixpack enjoying his early retirement.
So THAT'S where this all started!

I simply received a "Steel Boat Dis-Information Conspiracy" flyer in the mail one day from Exxon and signed right up. Did you get the cool burgee made out of baby seal fur?
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post #2283 of 5317 Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jak:
Your Grandpappy was a very wise man.

Somewhere, BS is sitting with a PEOPLE magazine watching his laundry spin.
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post #2284 of 5317 Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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So THAT'S where this all started!

I simply received a "Steel Boat Dis-Information Conspiracy" flyer in the mail one day from Exxon and signed right up. Did you get the cool burgee made out of baby seal fur?
Yup, That and the special cans of tuna with bits of baby dolphins in it.
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post #2285 of 5317 Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I spent some 30 years wandering on the BC coast and heating with beach and bush wood so have an opinion on whether it can be done. My Dickenson can cost up to 10 bucks a day to do the same and doesn't offer the same satisfaction. So, does my having an opinion about something I know a bit about illicit an automatic negative knee jerk response from other opinionated S N 'ers who may or may not know scat. I can only hope that other redeeming features show to prove that we are not all facetious, stupid or hopelessly biased .Built a wooden gaffer so I"m off thread with the pro/con.
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post #2286 of 5317 Old 11-24-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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I spent some 30 years wandering on the BC coast and heating with beach and bush wood so have an opinion on whether it can be done. My Dickenson can cost up to 10 bucks a day to do the same and doesn't offer the same satisfaction. So, does my having an opinion about something I know a bit about illicit an automatic negative knee jerk response from other opinionated S N 'ers who may or may not know scat. I can only hope that other redeeming features show to prove that we are not all facetious, stupid or hopelessly biased .Built a wooden gaffer so I"m off thread with the pro/con.
I don't think anyone has said that a woodstove can't heat cheaply. I think one issue above was about being able to gather beach wood each day in your area that would be dry enough to make a fire every night (or figuring out how and where to dry and store wood on a sailboat in sufficient quantities to fuel a stove 24/7 through the winter). I'll let you PNW guys duke it out over how dry the beach wood is around there - but I do absolutely know (even without steel boat experience) that wet wood doesn't like to burn.

Another issue above was that of the woodstove being "environmentally neutral". To try to justify his use of the woodstove as somehow environmentally superior to anything or anyone else out there (his usual MO), Brent threw that whopper on the fire - as it were. Is it a "negative knee jerk response" to refute this hair-brained proclamation with actual facts? Or should we just let it stand because Brent needs some self-esteem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I got attacked by plastic boat advocates any time I gave any of the pros of any steel boats, mostly by those who have a financial stake in listing only cons, people who have no experience in steel boats, cruising long term, maintaining or building in steel. They simply dont want cruisers know the pros. The question was pros and cons of steel boats ,not just cons. Without my contributions, the only ones based on actual extensive steel boat experience, only the cons would have been listed.
You guys have to remember, even the "plastic boat advocates" in this thread have prpovided plenty of pros about steel boats. The conflict has come when the claimed pros become so over the top that they're simply false. I, for one, absolutely DO want cruisers to know the pros of steel sailboats - even BS boats. I think it's critical that those cruisers have accurate, correct information with which to decide - not just crazed propaganda. You can easily see by the BS Marketing thread that it's more the latter that comes out of BS' posts, not the former. So, the biggest con thus far on steel boats in general is what's laid out in that thread. And they're Brent's own words.


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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"SOMETIMES" the wood on the beach is pretty dry. or it can dry semi quickly when you have a hot fire going. So beach fires can be fun on a dry evening, be it 30F as it is now, or 80F in the summer! Today it would have to be a bit bigger than the summer to stay somewhat warm!

With that, I can see where a propane or diesel heater would be better if on the hook. My new to me ceramic is pretty nice...........what ever suits your fancy!

Time for bed on my side of the coast, have a semi long day tomorrow!

Marty

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
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post #2288 of 5317 Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

In prior post asked Brent a few questions and still interested in getting answers. Wonder +/- of sheet vrs sprayed foam. Wonder if using coal tar derivatives and than allowing airspace with limber holes preferred. Wonder +/- of each technique. Was on a Puffin 46 done in steel. Owner was a retired ships captain for VLCC. His boat had coal tar with each section draining to bilge. He had a drop dead gorgeous wood interior. We visited him on a cold day while boat was on the hard. It was nice inside.
I still take exception to Brent's statement about leaky GRP. I've had multiple GRP boats. Production boats, semi production boats and one offs. None leaked. All where very comfy inside with minimal heating requirements. Perhaps cheap boats with just a liner inside are cold but for any quality GRP boat his statements are just not true.

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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I am always concerned about not being able to see the inside of the hull. I have a pal who is a Bristol Bay fisherman with a beautiful alu fish boat. He says he has to rip out his foam every three years and replace it because it gets soaked. Not sure if "soaked" is the word he used. But he says it is an awful job and must be done. I know steel boats can rust from the inside out. Had a friend with a beautiful Dutch built steel boat. He had rust problems from the inside out. I'd like to be able to see what the inside of my hull skin was doing.

Care to educate me when you are done with the laundry Brent. I would would be sincerely interested in your view on this.

I like my laundry room. I can cook, clean, watch footy on the telly and all the while be doing my laundry. I do separate the whites. I'm a whizz at laundry. I don't even let my wife do it. I'm a laundry Nazi.

A classic case of "projecting":
"The terrible, nagging fear that someone, somewhere, just might be having a good time"

I hope that everyone is having a good time.
Most of the Foulkes and Fehr boats built here had zero paint inside, and were foamed over mill scale. ( "Professionally built boats")
They have had major rust problems under the foam, and many have had plate replaced . I have even seen bare steel on them on the inside,where there a was no foam, flaking thick rust.
I recently worked on a boat for a Coast Guard guy, which was built in the 80's . She was sandblasted inside, and given a coat of cold galvanizing inside ( Interzinc)
She was in remarkably good condition under the zinc. So even that little protection made a huge difference. If you put several coats of epoxy tar on sandblasted or wheelabraded and zinc primed steel ,you wont have a problem in a lifetime. Sprayfoam is no protection.
My boat is 29 yeas o,and anywhere I have cut a hole thru it for a vent ,thru hull or radio coax , the steel and epoxy under it has been in perfect condition.
Foam will only soak up water if it is foamed right down into the bilge, where it will suck up water like a wick. Fish boats commonly make this mistake . Other wise it is quite watertight. It has to sit in water for a long time to absorb it. Tell your friend to stop the foam above the bilge ,so water can drain out of it , instead of wick up into it. Foam doesn't like to stick to bare aluminium or its oxide coating. Bruce Cope ( of Cope aluminum boats ) told me the best way to get anything to stick to aluminium is a light sandblasting. Next time he scrapes the foam out he should lightly sandblast the bare aluminium , put a primer on it then several coats of epoxy , before foaming . Keep the foam out of the bilge. For insulation down there, insulate the bottom of the floor boards.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-25-2013 at 08:09 PM.
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post #2290 of 5317 Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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In prior post asked Brent a few questions and still interested in getting answers. Wonder +/- of sheet vrs sprayed foam. Wonder if using coal tar derivatives and than allowing airspace with limber holes preferred. Wonder +/- of each technique. Was on a Puffin 46 done in steel. Owner was a retired ships captain for VLCC. His boat had coal tar with each section draining to bilge. He had a drop dead gorgeous wood interior. We visited him on a cold day while boat was on the hard. It was nice inside.
I still take exception to Brent's statement about leaky GRP. I've had multiple GRP boats. Production boats, semi production boats and one offs. None leaked. All where very comfy inside with minimal heating requirements. Perhaps cheap boats with just a liner inside are cold but for any quality GRP boat his statements are just not true.
Tried sheet foam on my last boat. No matter how hard I tried to make a vapor barrier it was permanently soaking wet with condensation behind the sheet foam. I ended up sprayfoaming it at the first opportunity. Friends started sheet foaming their waterline hull. It was a lot of work and expense so they sprayfoamed the rest and found the spray foam cost about he same, at a fraction the work. Airspace with limber holes still makes any surface with a 2 degree of temperature difference, a virtual watermaker. You would still have a very damp boat, and a bilge full of water. Full contact spray foam eliminates condensation, giving you a very dry interior.

You are the first GRP boat owner I have met, who lived aboard full time who didn't have deck leaks and cold and condensation problems

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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