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post #2291 of 5317 Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Thanks Brent. I'm going to pass that info along to my buddy with the alu fish boat.

I have something for you for Christmas. I know you will love it. It will save you many gallons of fresh water while you are cruising. I have used it for about ten years. If you PM me your mailing address I can send it to you. You will be amazed.

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post #2292 of 5317 Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob help me here. Have you heard a litany of complaints about leaks from owners of your designs?

I do get condensation on the glass of my port lights but it clears if I put the heat on.Think that's not a function of hull material but rather cold glass as it happens in my steel trucks windows as well.But deck leaks haven't been an issue. Brent maybe you been hanging with folks who own unusual boats. Think condensation and deck leak issues are pretty unusual now and usually easily fixed with rebedding.

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post #2293 of 5317 Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I spent several years as a liveaboard in Seattle on one of Bob's GRP boats and condensation was of little concern. Good ventilation has always been the key for me. The Dickenson Antarctic diesel fired heater puts out a tremendous of heat, so was always toasty. Didn't seem to be a problem on the South Island in New Zealand either. Guess some boats are better built/maintained then others....


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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I have something for you for Christmas. I know you will love it. It will save you many gallons of fresh water while you are cruising.
Sounds like scotch. Heh-heh.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
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post #2295 of 5317 Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Out:
No, not to the extent that myopic Brent would have you believe. There are boats with the odd leak. My Valiant 40 had a leak in the foredeck hatch, right over the V berth. I kept my dink stowed over the hatch. That cured it. Chainplates can leak a bit if not sealed properly. I've never had a chainplate leak and I've only ever owned grp boats. My Esprit didn't leak. The mighty PERRYWINKLE did not leak as long as I dogged the foredeck hatch down correctly. But this had zero to do with grp construction. It was just an odd Scandinavian alu hatch.

I have found that most leaks are due to improper bedding. Remove the piece of hardware portlight, etc, re-bed it and there you go, good as gold. Spike removed the handrails on the house top so he could varnish them. When he reinstalled them he did not bed one leg down well. It leaked. Not much but a bit. He took the rail off and re-bed it and it was fixed. It was an easy to locate leak.

I have known some poorly built boats to have hull to deck joint leaks and these can be a real problem. When get a leak like this it doesn't drop down where it comes in usually. You may have a leak up in the forward quarter of your rail but the water will run aft to the low point of the sheer before dripping. This can make finding the leak problematic. But this is a poorly built boat. Think of the problems you could have with a poorly built steel boat and we have all seen those.

Brent gets desperate (oh really?) and gropes for anything he can grasp to attack any boat that is not welded steel. We might as well get used to it. He has very little experience with good grp boats. I would imagine he has never spent any time on a quality grp boat. He will say he has but we know he fibs. His converts come from cheap, crummy grp boats I suspect. They just don't know any better. Brent gives them a cheap boat that doesn't leak and has a companionway door that looks like it came off a Fridgidaire.

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Last edited by bobperry; 11-25-2013 at 11:21 PM.
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post #2296 of 5317 Old 11-25-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Smackers:
If you think I'd waste my time and my scotch sending a bottle to BS then you have not been paying attention.

Send me your mailing address and I'll send you one too. No foollin'.

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post #2297 of 5317 Old 11-26-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I went to bed shortly after posting that post on leaks on boats.

I had a dream. I dreamed there was one "perfect boat" in the world and one "almost perfect boat". The perfect boat was really and truly perfect in every way. The problem was that if you bought the boat you died shortly after taking posession. You'd be OK with the almost perfect boat.

I don't much care for dreaming about my work. I do that better with my eyes open.

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob- I'm blessed. Have a nearly perfect boat and a perfect wife. Hope all SNer's have or find the same blessings. Much to be thankful for beyond the turkey and fixings.
Sleep tight
chall03, Faster and bobperry like this.

s/v Hippocampus
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Thanks Brent. I'm going to pass that info along to my buddy with the alu fish boat.

I have something for you for Christmas. I know you will love it. It will save you many gallons of fresh water while you are cruising. I have used it for about ten years. If you PM me your mailing address I can send it to you. You will be amazed.
Not all urethane foams are created equal. Spay foam is the most watertight. You can submerge it for days without absorbing a lot of water. Eventually, if it is constantly submerged it will absorb it , like in a bilge full of water. Pour in place foam is a lot less water tight. Canned spray foam is the least watertight, and can absorb water like a sponge, altho a friend told me some brands are far better than others.
Epoxy over primer is probably an over kill, but you do need some primer which will get a good bite on aluminium before spray foaming. I have wiped spray foam overspray off aluminium with my hand. It practically fell off.

If he has large windows which shed condensation, sealing the foam below the windows with epoxy may be a good idea.

Brent Swain
C/O 3798 Laurel Dr
Royston BC
Canada
V0R2V0

Mailing address
Actual location. Out cruising. Probably Quadra and Cortes Islands.

Thanks

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-26-2013 at 04:48 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Out:
No, not to the extent that myopic Brent would have you believe. There are boats with the odd leak. My Valiant 40 had a leak in the foredeck hatch, right over the V berth. I kept my dink stowed over the hatch. That cured it. Chainplates can leak a bit if not sealed properly. I've never had a chainplate leak and I've only ever owned grp boats. My Esprit didn't leak. The mighty PERRYWINKLE did not leak as long as I dogged the foredeck hatch down correctly. But this had zero to do with grp construction. It was just an odd Scandinavian alu hatch.

I have found that most leaks are due to improper bedding. Remove the piece of hardware portlight, etc, re-bed it and there you go, good as gold. Spike removed the handrails on the house top so he could varnish them. When he reinstalled them he did not bed one leg down well. It leaked. Not much but a bit. He took the rail off and re-bed it and it was fixed. It was an easy to locate leak.

I have known some poorly built boats to have hull to deck joint leaks and these can be a real problem. When get a leak like this it doesn't drop down where it comes in usually. You may have a leak up in the forward quarter of your rail but the water will run aft to the low point of the sheer before dripping. This can make finding the leak problematic. But this is a poorly built boat. Think of the problems you could have with a poorly built steel boat and we have all seen those.

Brent gets desperate (oh really?) and gropes for anything he can grasp to attack any boat that is not welded steel. We might as well get used to it. He has very little experience with good grp boats. I would imagine he has never spent any time on a quality grp boat. He will say he has but we know he fibs. His converts come from cheap, crummy grp boats I suspect. They just don't know any better. Brent gives them a cheap boat that doesn't leak and has a companionway door that looks like it came off a Fridgidaire.
A friends Crown 28 didn't leak last year but sure does this year. fortunately he has ben able to move aboard a BS 36. Another friends Hughs 31 leaks a lot. Removing the entire toe rail to find the leak then rebedding it, is no small job.
Another friend spends $280 a month on oil to keep his Ericson 37 warm. Sure you can make a GRP boat watertight, and comfortable ,but don't assume it will be when you buy it.
One should read about Hal Roth's experience with a decorative wooden toe rail ( attached by dozens of holes thru the decks)while crossing the North Pacific, before getting too impressed by such an arrangement. The difference between what he did to rectify the problem, and those who advocate such style over substance, is cruising experience.

Several years ago the single handed transpac was won by a guy from Seattle, who lived aboard his boat. Guys from sunny California were soaked by deck leaks the whole way across. The guy from Seattle was warm and dry the whole way. The reason was, that by living aboard in rainy Seattle, he had found and dealt with all the deck leaks over the years , as they appeared. The guys from California had not seen any such rain, and not having lived aboard, the automatic bilge pumps had kept them naïve.
A GRP boat can be made watertight, and insulated, but don't expect that from a boat which has not been lived aboard for a while in rainy climes. Bolt down hardware can be watertight, for a while, but it has no comparison to welded down hardware or welded metal bulwarks, which will never leak . The best, most reliable bedding compound ever invented is welding. It never needs rebedding.
Hull deck joint leaks are from underestimating the loads on such joints; they take almost the entire twisting loads on a boat.
Putting a dinghy over leak is not a solution at sea, in rough weather. Perhaps that is what the guys from California did, to avoid having to deal with it in port, only to find out later it doesn't work so well underway .
My one piece aluminium hatch has become standard on round the world racers, which don't use teak sliding hatches and drop boards, for good reason . It is water proof and airtight in all conditions( Good seamanship)
I've read of people inside, in front of drop boards and sliding hatches in a gale ,taking a shower of spray thru them every time wave hit, like someone turning the shower on and off every few seconds. Accepting that, for decorative reasons, is simply bad seamanship ( and not all that bright either.)

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-26-2013 at 04:44 PM.
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