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  #2351  
Old 11-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I have no doubt that Brent could whip a container into something that looked kinda, sorta like a boat in no time. Think of it as BS lapstrake.
No thanks. That would look too much like a Bob Perry design.
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  #2352  
Old 11-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I'm sitting here at 4:25 am trying hard to figure out what "racism" has to do with yacht design and building. Why bring that claim up? Has reasonable and cogent argument failed?

I'd better make some coffee.
It's a reflection of the kind of people and the kind of attacks made on me on that site and the kind of people and attacks Mike Johns likes.
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  #2353  
Old 11-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You know, this could totally work!



"The BS Container"! Just a couple of cuts here and there - then fold her right up!

Brent, you really need to bring your years of steel, origami, and cruising experience to this project. It's the perfect legacy!
Seeing any comparison between the two shapes, takes a lot of scotch.

Why would they put all those kinks in if ,as "engineer" Mike Johns implies, shape has little or no effect on stiffness?
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-29-2013 at 05:53 PM.
  #2354  
Old 11-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Despite the long-winded diatribe - the problem is, when it comes to environmentalism, you just don't practice what you preach.



See, it's okay for you to destroy the planet with your steel - because it "eventually" makes your "footprint smaller". But you're still being very destructive.

If you want to take the holy-roller environmentalist, anti-consumerism stance - you need to be all about 100% recycling. That is, recycle the many, many wood or plastic boats that are already out there. Then use all your techniques and innovative gear ideas to keep that boat completely off the grid - always. If you did this, I'd give you huge kudos. That would be admirable - remarkable even.

But you don't do this. You're just another advocate of unnecessary consumerism: "What's right for Baosteel, Angang Steel Company, Wuhan Iron and Steel, Anshan, Tangshan, Shagang Group and Hebei Iron and Steel - is right for the environment."

By encouraging people to buy your DVDs, your plans, tons of steel, tons of lead, gallons of epoxy, a combustion engine, a polluting woodstove, a barnful of tools, blow off manganese fumes for years, etc. - you're simply promoting very destructive consumerism.

You really shouldn't do that...regardless of what the other "bad guys" are doing.
Your suggestion that a fibreglass boat is built with zero environmental foot print assumes that resin is not a petroleum product. that the metal in the engine is never mined nor smelted, it originates at the factory , by "Magic" as does the material in the DVD's and books he uses.. Resin doesn't come from oil nor the tar sands? Where does it come from? The marine store? Ya sure Steve, the same way meat doesn't come from cows, but from the super market?
And you don't have an environmental foot print? Do you power your car with methane from your posts? Your electricity is "produced" at the outlet by "Magic?"
I have never claimed that my boats don't have an environmental foot print. Just that when one moves aboard, his environmental foot print is drastically reduced from that of people living the "Designated " consumer lifestyle.
Yes this is off topic , but when Steve spouts his foolish disinformation, it must be challenged . Such crap, unchallenged, is naively accepted as truth , by some.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 11-27-2013 at 05:14 PM.
  #2355  
Old 11-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Your suggestion that a fibreglass boat is built with zero environmental foot print assumes that resin is not a petroleum product. that the metal in the engine is never mined nor smelted, it originates at the factory , by "Magic" as does the material in the DVD's and books he uses.. Resin doesn't come from oil nor the tar sands? Where does it come from? The marine store? Ya sure Steve, the same way meat doesn't come from cows, but from the super market?
And you don't have an environmental foot print? Do you power your car with methane from your posts? Your electricity is "produced" at the outlet by "Magic?"
I have never claimed that my boats don't have an environmental foot print. Just that when one moves aboard, his environmental foot print is drastically reduced from that of people living the "Designated " consumer lifestyle.
Yes this is off topic , but when Steve spouts his foolish disinformation, it must be challenged . Such crap, unchallenged, is naively accepted as truth , by some.
Heh. FWIW, I agree with you, Brent.

I guess I'll stick with the boat I have - made from the trees once standing on the hill from which the iron ore was mined to make your steel boats.
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Last edited by Classic30; 11-27-2013 at 05:42 PM.
  #2356  
Old 11-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Your suggestion that a fibreglass boat is built with zero environmental foot print assumes that resin is not a petroleum product. that the metal in the engine is never mined nor smelted, it originates at the factory , by "Magic" as does the material in the DVD's and books he uses.. Resin doesn't come from oil nor the tar sands? Where does it come from? The marine store? Ya sure Steve, the same way meat doesn't come from cows, but from the super market?
And you don't have an environmental foot print? Do you power your car with methane from your posts? Your electricity is "produced" at the outlet by "Magic?"
I have never claimed that my boats don't have an environmental foot print. Just that when one moves aboard, his environmental foot print is drastically reduced from that of people living the "Designated " consumer lifestyle.
Yes this is off topic , but when Steve spouts his foolish disinformation, it must be challenged . Such crap, unchallenged, is naively accepted as truth , by some.
He was suggesting (and I agree) that utilizing an EXISTING glass boat has a smaller footprint than making NEW steel for a new steel boat.

Tough to have a smaller footprint than using already existing stuff.

P.S. where is the quote or link about "shape not affecting strength"? Hard to believe that anyone who ever cracked an egg could be that obtuse.
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  #2357  
Old 11-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent:
I just read the above posts. To begin with, on your very best day you could not dream of designing a boat as good as one of mine. If you can then show the drawings to prove you are a "designer". I have never seen them. You cannot do this. It is impossible for you to post anything that displays design talent. If you can put "yacht designer " after your name I can put "brain surgeon" after mine.

And,,, stop this holier than thou, smaller carbon footprint BS. Nobody cares. Of course you have a smaller footprint. You are a little guy. And please give me the washing instructions for the hair shirt. Starch? No starch? I'm sure you get extra starch. You are way to judgmental for my group. We leave room for personal differences.

Why not talk about boats for a change?


BTW: Christmas present went out today.
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  #2358  
Old 11-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

David,

make that We both belong to said club thru about dec 31, then I may be telling them bastedo's sianara! Did I speel sianara correct?!?!?! probably not since I see a red wavy line under it! Bunch of idjiots that club is at times......... You should join the group across the street, much more fun! altho they do not have racing.....with 20 sailboat members, should be able to get a race or two off, considering the one is down below 50, they get 30 off! and are losing money to boot! unlike the other.......WHich has lost all its sponsors for the big race........dingle snorts at the party's fault! I should shut up while ahead me thinks.......OUCH.......note to self, quit thinking, hurts brain electron!


Marty
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  #2359  
Old 11-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Your suggestion that a fibreglass boat is built with zero environmental foot print assumes that resin is not a petroleum product. that the metal in the engine is never mined nor smelted, it originates at the factory , by "Magic" as does the material in the DVD's and books he uses.. Resin doesn't come from oil nor the tar sands? Where does it come from? The marine store? Ya sure Steve, the same way meat doesn't come from cows, but from the super market?
And you don't have an environmental foot print? Do you power your car with methane from your posts? Your electricity is "produced" at the outlet by "Magic?"
I have never claimed that my boats don't have an environmental foot print. Just that when one moves aboard, his environmental foot print is drastically reduced from that of people living the "Designated " consumer lifestyle.
Yes this is off topic , but when Steve spouts his foolish disinformation, it must be challenged . Such crap, unchallenged, is naively accepted as truth , by some.
Wow - for a dude who piously shuns scotch, you sure do confuse easily.

What is typed and what you understand from those words are just two completely different things. You have a real hard time following a point. See - this is why no one believes you when claim someone said something or other. You just never get it right. So the links to the actual quotes are very important for you if you ever want people to believe you.

Here - let Sloop's summation help you out. He understood the point perfectly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
He was suggesting (and I agree) that utilizing an EXISTING glass boat has a smaller footprint than making NEW steel for a new steel boat.

Tough to have a smaller footprint than using already existing stuff.
When it comes to boats, I advocate (and practice) recycling by buying existing boats. You advocate (and practice) building new ones out of steel - which is blatant consumerism that destroys the environment more than it already is.

So in this case, your planet-killing carbon footprint is WAY bigger. Just sayin'.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-27-2013 at 11:47 PM.
  #2360  
Old 11-28-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Think the argument about steel v. Glass footprint is just silly. Grp requires oil for supplies. Steel requires huge electricity for steel manufactor and when I run even my small millermatic the Ah just flow. Both have significant footprints. But how you live with the boat also impacts. My heating system is extremely efficient . I make my own electricity. I'm not running chainsaws or other 2 cycle engines. I don't weld,sandblast,flame zinc, and use power tools to a limited degree. I sail not power if there is any wind to speak of. In short one can be an energy pig in either a grp or steel boat.
New v. Old is also problematic. Any boat has a service life. This can be prolonged by proper maintenance . That maintenance has a "footprint" . I would suggest that "footprint" is smaller for a new or recent boat.
Returning to th O.P. Steel has great benefits
Strength
Possibility for amateur construction.
Abrasion resistance
It also has deficits
Labor in construction and need for meticulous construction to prevent rust/ electrolysis
Maintenance requirements
Weight
Inability to develope complex curves limiting design.
Poor resale value.
When looking at building my last boat it came down to realization that if one wanted to sail a boat with decent performance, have the comforts of home, have people available to maintain or fix what I could not grp won out.
Below 50' steel loses out to aluminum on performance. Above 50' I can't afford operating costs.
Think once I get the bucket list issue of sailing tropics/ subtropics out of way I might think of a metal boat. If so with current technologies aluminum beats out steel even for high latitude sailing in every way. You see production runs of aluminum from France and the Netherlands . Other than waterline and puffin I don't know of anyone still producing in steel.
smackdaddy and bobperry like this.
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