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  #2501  
Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
It sounds like your friend needs to learn about the value of simplicity. IF he had built a simple boat without so many unnecessary systems, he wouldn't have so much to repair and maintain. Refrigeration is a joke on a boat. Tell him to read the Pardey's book "The Care and Feeding of the Offshore Crew" which shows how to provision for long cruises without refrigeration while eating very well.
Really? I guess you have misunderstood me, I said "refrigeration of the engine", it had nothing to do with the refrigerator bit with the boat engine. The replacing of the tubing was done by a reputable shipyard (the engine needed to be opened and repaired) that even so seems not to be as good in the job as a boat manufacturer. Some of the tubes they had installed could not take the temperature and one melted away.

Or are you suggesting that he should have simplified his boat to the point of not having an engine?

Regarding a refrigerator I agree that it is not necessary as any other system in a boat, except sails. In fact I cruised the coast of Portugal with a sailboat with a bare hull and not always with an engine. You can also live in a house without water, electricity or WC. Maybe that's the case. It is all a matter of comfort.

Regarding the refrigerator on a boat I like my beer, white wine and water cool. My wife likes to have butter in other form than liquid and puts in the freezer a lot of things from Yogurt to cheese and all kind of delicatessen. I like all that stuff and life would not be so good without a refrigerator and that's why we have one. In fact we have two but only use one for not wasting much energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
...
If you're really interested here's why I don't personally want a fridge on my boat: In a remote place I don't want to go without food if the fridge breaks. So that means *if* I bring a fridge, I need to also need to bring enough backup food that doesn't need a fridge.
...
Do you really sail on remote places with your boat all the time? An even if you do that once or twice do you sail on remote places most of the time? If you do that, like in what regards car maintenance you are really an exception.

If you sail on remote places just one or two times with your sailing boat you can use the fridge most of the time and just not use it the few times you sail on remote places.

Even so the ones I knew that sail on remote places use a freezer and like on my boat they have more than one. It will be really a very unusual thing to have two refrigerators malfunctioning, specially if they are new.

By the way, in what remote places you sail in your boat?

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-01-2013 at 10:55 AM.
  #2502  
Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
I'm glad refrigeration works for you, and I certainly wouldn't turn down a cold beer in the anchorage if you offered me one.

If you're really interested here's why I don't personally want a fridge on my boat: In a remote place I don't want to go without food if the fridge breaks. So that means *if* I bring a fridge, I need to also need to bring enough backup food that doesn't need a fridge.

It just seems like less hassle to learn how to provision without refrigeration, and be done with it. It's been kinda fun, my wife and I have enjoyed learning to provision for voyages and camping trips without using refrigeration. We do have a fridge at home, but some of the stuff we've learned has let us rely on it less. For example, we now know how to store eggs and vegetables long term without using a fridge so we have more space in the fridge at home and can go shopping less often.

I'll also admit to reading a bit of Seneca the Younger, Thoreau, and even Jay Fitzgerald. There's some interesting ideas in those books, and it's pretty pleasurable to get a chance to put them into practice (even if ironically, some of those authors may not have).
We provisioned both ways. We had all the frozen/refrigerated stuff plus all the stores to do without. But that doesn't mean we didn't enjoy cold beer as available.

At the time people also laughed at our water maker as a unnecessary luxury, but I remember trading 50 gallons of fresh water for 10lbs of fresh caught grouper while we were anchored out in Las Aves. We were able to stay anchored off, without seeing civilization for four months, and really only had to come back because we ran out of beer. While a string of more 'traditional' boats kept rotating back to land. Usually they would run out of water, some fresh food, others time.

We had all the modern luxuries that people like you laugh at, but they all worked fine and we stayed until we ran out of diesel...

Onboard systems...

1) generator
2) 3 * AC - run every night
3) dive compressor
4) refrig & seperate freezer
5) water maker
6) sat tv
7) Nintendo (nothing like playing video games in the middle of nowhere)
8) ice cream maker

But we also carried 500 gallons of diesel and 450 of water. So we could run the generator every night to cool off the boat, and take real showers.
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  #2503  
Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
More disinformation from Mike! A boat hitting a rock in Boat Passage at 15 knots is not a gentle grounding. It was a 40 footer
A 40' steel boat doing 15 knots? Where can I get one of those?
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  #2504  
Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Come on Jon. That's 5 knots with a 10 knot tidal current. Do the math!

Stumbles:
You must be talking about a very big boat.
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  #2505  
Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
We provisioned both ways. We had all the frozen/refrigerated stuff plus all the stores to do without. But that doesn't mean we didn't enjoy cold beer as available.

At the time people also laughed at our water maker as a unnecessary luxury, but I remember trading 50 gallons of fresh water for 10lbs of fresh caught grouper while we were anchored out in Las Aves. We were able to stay anchored off, without seeing civilization for four months, and really only had to come back because we ran out of beer. While a string of more 'traditional' boats kept rotating back to land. Usually they would run out of water, some fresh food, others time.

We had all the modern luxuries that people like you laugh at, but they all worked fine and we stayed until we ran out of diesel...

Onboard systems...

1) generator
2) 3 * AC - run every night
3) dive compressor
4) refrig & seperate freezer
5) water maker
6) sat tv
7) Nintendo (nothing like playing video games in the middle of nowhere)
8) ice cream maker

But we also carried 500 gallons of diesel and 450 of water. So we could run the generator every night to cool off the boat, and take real showers.
Utter, shameful decadance!
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  #2506  
Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I thought of that but I checked - Boat passage peaks at less than 6 so that's still a hell of a fast steel 40'.

Full throttle, with a max flow, onto the rocks? Maybe.

Actually, now that I think back on this thread, that seems to be the Karma, or even the purpose of Brentboats.
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  #2507  
Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
A 40' steel boat doing 15 knots? Where can I get one of those?
Don't be like that You can easily have a steel sailing boat doing 15k and even more. You can order one of these to several boat designers, Hoeck for instance.

http://www.hoekdesign.com/home/boten...=957&Control=2

Regards

Paulo
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  #2508  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Come on Jon. That's 5 knots with a 10 knot tidal current. Do the math!

Stumbles:
You must be talking about a very big boat.
An Irwin 54' with an additional fuel tank installed. Certainly big, but not a monster. Not fast, or high performance, but wonderful to live on. I learned a lot growing up on her.
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  #2509  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The best you can do about that is to sail a recent boat or a having a new car. Statistically they have less breakage than an older one. You cannot be prepared for everything or have spars for all things so in the end what it counts is your resourcefulness and creativity. Portuguese are quite good at that, that is so common around here that we even have a word for it that you cannot translate in any other language: "deserascar"

Seriously, if you think that a home made boat made by an amateur that never had made a boat before is more reliable than a production boat that has been made in hundreds of copies (whose eventual defects have been erased after the first dozens) and count with the accumulated experienced of a shipyard that has produced thousands of boats with similar characteristics and materials for many years, you are wrong.

I have a friend that has a steel boat made by himself. It looks like a true voyage boat , with windvane, solar panels, wind generator, two anchors on a double bow rudder, an adapted Mercedes engine and all the good and expensive materials. The boat costed him a fortune and he says very nasty things about plastic production boats.

We are both retired and eventually planned in sailing together next year. My boat is in Italy his was in Portugal and the plan was for him to sail his boat this summer to Italy, and eventually to cruise in Sardinia, for next year to sail with me in Greece.

He did not manage to go further than Valencia on the coast of Spain.

While I arrived at Rome, rigged my boat in a week and sail away to cruise more than 2000nm without any problem he took more than a month "preparing" his boat and then while cruising he had a problem with the refrigeration of the engine and had to call for help. Later he had a problem with the water tanks and had the boat flooded....he had more problems but I do cannot remember all. Anyway that is the main reason why he does not have made further than Valencia (where he leaved the boat for the winter)and that in two months of sailing. That and the boat being heavy and slow.

When I had my previous 36ft mass production boat I had done several times, in one and a half months, all the way to the Balearic Islands and back to Portugal and still had time to cruise slowly for three weeks on the Islands. Never had a problem that I could not desenrascar and always have done what I had planned.

Regards

Paulo
A friend has a Sparkman and Stephens designed Hughs 31 which was mass produced . The tumble home on one side of the cabin is roughly 2 1/2 inches more that on the other side. Find one and check it out. That is typical of mass produced boats.
I met an old couple in Hilo who had crossed for mexico intheir brand new CT 41.They said itr saield fast but leaked like a sieve. What they had assumed was fibrglass was plywood and putty. Bob, did you design that one?
Anothe guy I met in San Quentin Mexico, who had draged in a hurricane there and was repairing the dammage said his mass produced boat was advertied as having 900 galons of fuel capacity. Instead she had about35 gallons of fuel capacity.
Mass produced means having a huge stake in saving a few ounces or an hour or two of labour anywhere, mutiplied by many boats, so they can to stay in business, something which is of little concern to a home builder.
Most home built boats are far better put together , even by first time builders, than most mass produced boats, for this reason. Anyone with a stock, mass produced boat who wants to test this out can tie their mooring gear to a home made one of my designs , built by a farmer wiht zero previous boat buildig experince , give her full throttle, with a large amount of slack in the mooring lines and see who's mooring bits pull out first, when the line snaps tight.

I believe the reason your friend's boat took so long and cost so much is because he didn't follow the directions in my book and plans , but got his advice from those trying to sell him expensive gear and materials. I wrote the book to help people avoid those pitfalls.
I rember back in the 80's building a boat for a couple who workred in an office doing gfovernment computer work. When I walked in in my work clothes the couple's boss took one look a me and took them into his office, and asked them "Is that your boat desgnber and builder?" they said "Yes." He said "I think you should shop around a bit more. " I built them a shell for a 31. He bought a new stock plastic boat. The sailed to California then down to Mexico and points south, thru the caribean to Halifax, back to the caribean for the winter, then over to England. After sevral years of this, they went back to Vancouver for a vist to find their boss stil working to pay for his boat ( and for having followed his own advice)
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  #2510  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Casio:
I think you are making a broad generalization. I have had clients of my production boats who have done circumnavigations (more than I can count) and tackled the problems as they came if they came. The fact they did not build the boat from scratch had no bearing at all. They knew their boat.
Thos with a background in working with tools and building stuff, will have no problem. Those who have never worked with tools and who have only shuffled papes for a living and bought everything they ever owned can get in a lot of trouble at sea.
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