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  #2511  
Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Really? I guess you have misunderstood me, I said "refrigeration of the engine",
Just a miscommunication, I've never heard of the word "refrigeration" used to refer to the engine cooling system, but only systems for keeping food or crew cold.

I do personally prefer to not have an engine on my boat as well. For me, simplicity is how I avoid wasting much of my time fixing stuff. The old Volvo for example doesn't require a lot of work to keep going because it's so simple. I like to joke that the entire car has half the parts of the HVAC system on a modern luxury car.

Statistics are only reliable when applied correctly, in the correct context. For example if you don't have statistics specifically on people maintaining 80s european cars as if they were commercial aircraft, you don't have any information on how reliable this would be.

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
If you sail on remote places just one or two times with your sailing boat you can use the fridge most of the time and just not use it the few times you sail on remote places.
Yea, I agree that the value of simplicity is more pronounced if you rely on your systems for survival vs just comfort. A boat going to more remote places needs to be more reliable, and therefore should be simpler.

Same thing with camping- a person staying in public campgrounds near civilization can have a big luxurious RV. A person crossing thousands of miles of wilderness would be better to go on foot, and bring mostly knowledge and just a few pounds of gear. Ultralight minimalist backpacking in a campground would be just as ridiculous as trying to cross thousands of miles of road free wilderness in a motorhome.

Last edited by casioqv; 12-01-2013 at 02:18 PM.
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  #2512  
Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
This is only a consequence of a philosophy of disposability... people don't maintain their stuff and it deteriorates until they replace it. If a machine is inspected and maintained rigorously, it will be least reliable during an initial testing phase when assembly mistakes show up, and then have a steady higher level of reliability after that.

Commercial aircraft are a good example of this: they maintain nearly 100% reliability for a very long service life, and go through extensive testing at the beginning to uncover any flaws. Cars and boats also work this way when maintained in the same manner... most people never get to experience this because they have never owned something maintained properly. Vehicle statistics in the general population definitely won't reflect this!

I drive a 1984 Volvo 760 diesel with almost 400k miles and regularly take it on long road trips in remote places. I absolutely never have an unexpected mechanical failure on this vehicle: it's very simple, I know it like the back of my hand, and I inspect and replace every part long before it fails. There isn't a single moving part in the car I haven't torn apart and inspected multiple times. I know how fast each part wears, and where in the wear cycle they currently are.

There isn't a single system that doesn't work at least as well as when it came off the dealer lot. It continues to get even more reliable with age as I've engineered upgrades to preemptively prevent design flaw related failures others have had in the same model car. For example the front crossmember, oil cooler, and engine wiring harness were all of defective design when the vehicle was new and have been upgraded preemptively. This can't be done with a new vehicle, because this knowledge wouldn't exist yet.
My brother, once one of th etop high performanc race car mechanics told me that most of what wears out in a car engine is replaceable, so theoretically the engine couldbe run for a very long time, far longer than is normally done.
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  #2513  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
It sounds like your friend needs to learn about the value of simplicity. IF he had built a simple boat without so many unnecessary systems, he wouldn't have so much to repair and maintain. Refrigeration is a joke on a boat. Tell him to read the Pardey's book "The Care and Feeding of the Offshore Crew" which shows how to provision for long cruises without refrigeration while eating very well.
When I started cruising in my boat, she had no electrical system . That was only added years later. I have heard of some spending two years and thousands of dollars on an electrical system. I advise peopel to put in some conduit, running the length of the boat at the hull deck joint ,put in some kerosene lamps and get the hell out cruising
Then they can add whatever they find they need, in some quiet, peaceful anchorage.
What kind of electrical system did Slocum or Hiscock have? Surely they couldnt have gone anywhere without one , could they?
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  #2514  
Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
My brother, once one of th etop high performanc race car mechanics told me that most of what wears out in a car engine is replaceable, so theoretically the engine couldbe run for a very long time, far longer than is normally done.
Absolutely, look at Irv Gordon- his 1966 Volvo has 3 million miles and is still in like new condition.

Statistics from Consumer Reports show that the average life span of a new vehicle is 150,000 miles, so Irv is already at 20 times that and yet his vehicle isn't just chugging along, but is still literally like new. Like many old sailing ships, this could be maintained indefinitely but eventually there would be no original parts left.

Is Irv's car unreliable because it's no longer new? Heck no, he'll probably not have a single breakdown between now and when 70% of the new cars coming off the lot today are recycled as scrap metal. This is in part because his vehicle is so simple- it may not be possible to get this sort of reliability out of a newer more complex car, at any price.
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Last edited by casioqv; 12-01-2013 at 02:57 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
We spent ten years in the islands with a refrigerator and a freezer and an ice maker. How in gods name would we have been better off without them?

Is it possible? Sure, but so is becoming celibate but I am not planning on that either.


Frankly this idea of 'unnecessary systems' is an aberration to me. I like cold drinks, I like cold milk, I like ice cream, and modern systems make all this possible anywhere in the world at an affordable price. What possible reason is there to not have them, other than some weird purist notion of cruising.

Do you have a refrigerator at home? If so why wouldn't you have one one your boat. In both cases they are luxuries that could have been done without.
I once lived in a housekeeping room which had a fridge. Used it once in many years . Had an ice box in my last boat. Used it once in 10 years . A guy named Gray who wrote for Pacific yachting wrote an article about a guy in Mexico trying to get his fridge fixed. The last line in the article was ';All told he spent enough to buy 30 tons of ice."
Firdge is just the tip of the iceberg in that kind of thinking. Given the choice between toys and cruising timeI prefer cruising time and fredom .That is why I spend so much time cruising and toy worshippers spend so much time working while tied to the dock, or boatyard.
Toy worshipers usually dont make the connection between toys and lack of cruising time freedom.
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  #2516  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I have heard of some spending two years and thousands of dollars on an electrical system
I had a whole response to this typed out when I realized that I am just turning into Don Quixote fighting windmills. Boats take forever to build and then just a few hours, it just isn't worth the time.
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  #2517  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
Well it was from your own words so I'm not sure where the charge of disinformation comes from.

by Brent Swain: "Given the tendency for the trailing edges of the twin keels to be driven up into the boat when they collide with a rock, and the fact that they are far enough back to be under the pilothouse floor in the 36, putting a 3/16th plate web across them would reinforce them without being in the way of anything. The top of this web could be T'd with a piece of ˝ inch by 4 inch flatbar, making it extremely strong."

You admitted that was your older design and that it needed improving which you did. I was using that to illustrate that your intuitive grasp of shaped based strength was wrong , that stiffness and buckling strength are not the same thing at all.

Here's your own post talking of scaling your frameless foldup:

by Brent Swain "My 26 is ten gauge hull plate, my 31, 36 and 40 are all 3/16th. I only suggested 3/8th for a 60 footer. "

You talked of another 65 footer once that you had some involvement with. But whether 60 or 65 the point is that the effort was made to show you that you cannot scale your frameless design to even close to 50 feet, the total length doesn't matter.
I had drawn the tank and specified the angle iron webs in that design by that time in the plans I sold them, which they ignored. The tops of the low aspect ratio keels on my 36 are 8 ft long. I have since seen them on that site , swooning over twin keelers which have about a foot of attachement to the hull, with a far higher aspect ratio.
How do you get a foot of attachement to a plastic hull ,with a far higher aspect ratio keel, to be stronger than 8 ft of attachement to a steel hull with a far lower aspect ratio keel?
You dont!( Mike the "Engineer?")
No Mike, with a track record like that ,I wouldn't want you "Engineering" any of my boats, any more that I would let a civil "engineer " do laser surgery on my eyes.

A friend posted several pictures of a couple of very successful origami 55 footers in aluminium on that site. One I last saw at Christmas Island after which he sailed back to BC in November. Jean Marc, the owner, has cruised enough miles in the Hecate straight area, year round to have done a circumnavigation, wiht zero structural problems .He loves sailing in full storms. Harvey , on the other origami 55 footer, cruises the west coast of Vancouver Island year round .
Completely demolishes your theory about them not being strong enough.
Here are some quotes from a letter Steve on Silas Crosby sent me from the Straits of Magellan
"I thought you should know that Silas Crosby is amoung the smaller boats sailing around , but it seems to cause us less worry that most boats down here .
The ability to get in very shallow and even dry out , or just touch at low tide, is a quality that most people, even here , do not have a clue about.
While avoiding ice chunks near the Pia Glacier, I hit a rock dead on at 3 knots . A shrug and carried on. Thanks for your helping me get here . Good boat, good design."
This completely demolishes Mikes theory about my boats not being strong enough. So who would you believe, someone who has sailed one of my boats from BC around Cape Horn, then home again via the western Aleutians , or some one who has never sailed on one , an armchair expert?
When the later claims to know more about a boat than the former, what is his credibility?

Take any Mike Johns design ( which I have never seen) and run thru Boat pass at full flood tide, at full throttle, and hit the big rock in the middle, and see how it makes out .As Mike implies, it will suffer no damage. I am sure he will fully warantee it against such dammage, so it wont cost you anything.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 12-01-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 12-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
...
Most home built boats are far better put together , even by first time builders, than most mass produced boats, for this reason. Anyone with a stock, mass produced boat who wants to test this out can tie their mooring gear to a home made one of my designs , built by a farmer wiht zero previous boat buildig experince , give her full throttle, with a large amount of slack in the mooring lines and see who's mooring bits pull out first, when the line snaps tight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I believe the reason your friend's boat took so long and cost so much is because he didn't follow the directions in my book and plans , but got his advice from those trying to sell him expensive gear and materials....


As you know the hull of a boat represents probably only about 1/4 of the cost of a cruiser with a nice interior. His boat was expensive because he used for all other material, from tanks to heater, refrigerator, winches, rigging and mast the same high quality products that are used on mass produced boats but as the big shipyards buy those items directly to the factory and by hundreds of units, the ones he bought to a dealer costed probably 2 times more than what they cost to a big shipyard. of course to have a comfortable interior he had to pay to a carpenter to make it and custom work is not cheap.

Actually he said to me that he had invested about 200 000 euros on his boat (36ft) that eventually he liked to sell to have a bigger boat...but the market price of his boat is between 30 and 35 000 euros so he as no courage to sell and in between periods of lucidity comes to the same old story : My boat is better than any plastic boat...even if he knows that the boat had given him only hardships in what regards costs and maintenance, not to mention sailing performance.

Regards

Paulo
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  #2519  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
You are way off on both of these claims.

Wynand as a very professional boilermaker/welder and steel boat builder summarized quite correctly that you were something akin to a backyard butcher when it came to designing and building boats. So in response you resorted to a hatchet job on him. Your usual technique of making something up. In this case racism. As I said before it's so dumb to lie on record about events on record.So now you are exposed again, this time on this forum as a very creative liar.

The longitudinals you talk of; I'd be very surprised if you don't really remember what that was about!
It was your claim of incredible unusual strength not shown by structural analysis since they were always in compression ! So I showed you how stress reversal occurs under load and how readily it occurs in pre stressed components ie the longitudinals. Are you now saying that went over your head too in which case you are a poor learner. Or is it more a case of it disagrees with your book and therefore has to be denied and warped into something you can disregard? Do you want me to go through it again?

Anyway you didn't leave BD net due to racist attacks or attacks on frameless boats or the coastguard or any other such nonsense. Rather because of the direct result of your own dishonesty, vitriol and the backlash from your own creative personal attacks. You were also exposed clearly as a fraud there.

No one is ever going to believe anything you say without checking it very well first. You are so stupid to continually and unnecessarily lie. If you lie so brazenly about things which can be easily checked then what about the events that are more obscure and already second hand like your marketing hype ?
I distinctly remeber metioning that lonbgitudinals weld to t he inside of the hull are under compresion pushing outwards with a great amount of force which you claimed lessened their resistance to inward pressure.I distinctly remember you taking a spline and pushing inwards on the middle, them seeingtghe ends bulge outwards, then claiming that is what would happen to a 1 inch by 1 inch by 1/4 inch angle longitudinal welded to the inside of a hull. Do do that you, would have to stretch 3/16th plate over a huge area ( tensile strength 60,000 lbs) by puishing on it with apiece of 1 inch by 1 inch by 1/4 inch angle
I have seen flat bar longitudinals buckle from weld shrinkage on a Ron Pearson design, but angle is an entirely different matter. Its never hapened on any of my designs in 37 years and tens of thousands of miles of cruising and sever toture tests in extreme conditions. Never will.
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  #2520  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Why are we talking about racism and carbon footprints here? What idiot would introduce those subjects into a discussion on yacht design and building?
Its about the credibility of the site mentioned. You have introduced posts about wine and kids etc in a discussion of boat design. So stop being the kettle calling the pot black.
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