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  #2561  
Old 12-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I have so many letters after my name my wife likes to play word jumble with them (not really but she could). Frankly the only thing I feel I am a true expert on is the areas of law I practice, and other than a JD, there really isn't any other certification I could get for that.

Frankly I see licenses and degrees as basic competency levels. They are just the minimums needed to work in that field. But they don't speak to the quality of the job they can/will do. Conversely not having them doesn't concern me, but I would need to see a body of work of sufficient size to feel comfortable they know what the heck they are doing.
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  #2562  
Old 12-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Here is a short video about education. Worth watching to the end.

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  #2563  
Old 12-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Who cares what assn they belong to? Their work speaks for itself.
So.. does that mean R.I.N.A and similar naval architecture associations are irrelevant - and always have been?

It's a fair question.
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Old 12-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
So.. does that mean R.I.N.A and similar naval architecture associations are irrelevant - and always have been?

It's a fair question.
Not irrelevant but not important in and of itself. I just googled R.I.N.A. and couldn't find a list of working designers that belong. But I know what boats I like and who I would approach if I had the money.
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Old 12-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Since my last post I have been trying to find a designer that even puts assn letters after his name or belongs to the R.I.N.A. or any other design association - I can't find any.

Olin apprenticed under Phil Rhodes when he and Rod partnered with Drake Sparkman to form S&S. They were both sailors and Rod had worked at Nevins. Olin was 21 at the time. Dorade was his first design and won the Trans-Atlantic race in 1931. They were both self taught sailors.

Bruce Kirby, who has designed boats from International 14 to America's Cup contenders Canada 1 and II had no design education at all. One of his earliest designs was the Laser.

Having followed Steve Dashew's designs of cruising boats from the beginning as well as reading his books I don't think he has any formal training in design.

No, I don't think it makes any difference at all. It may have been important in the distant past but not now.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Hey Mike,

I saw over at BDnet that Wynand built a Van De Stadt or two. I honestly didn't know those were "non-production" boats (i.e. - built from plans by other builders). Is that common for the VDS line? And were/are they typically steel?

I have to say I liked the aluminum origami boats I came across on BS' site much better than the steel ones. They looked much cleaner and more "professional" even though they had the same hull distortions as the steelers.

I can't remember the name of the company, but somewhere many pages ago in this thread, I posted a video of a company that was building some very nice looking origami aluminum yachts a few years back. They went belly up (couldn't meet demand). But to my eye, they were at least turning out a nice looking boat.

Hi Smack

Yes VDS sold plans to pro yards and home builders alike. They are very common designs in some parts of the world. Easy to build and some chine based frameless designs that go together quickly. And well engineered.


Alloy origami, look here:
Origami Magic Not Brent's designs but origami boats. Nothing about them being frameless and that boat would be pretty floppy without significant frames, girders transverses or bulkheads of some sort.


JeanMarc 50
The above 50 footer is the 55 footer that BS just rambled on about as vindication of his claim that his boats would scale to 60 feet without frames.

Much nicer looking hull than a BS boat.
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Old 12-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Classic:
I can't answer for "the industry" even as small as it is. I can answer for me from my own experience.

Up until the last 15 years there has been no way to get a college degree in yacht design. You could get a degree in naval architecture but that has very little to do with yacht design. With the field being so small it didn't pay for any university to pump out graduates in yacht design. There was the Westlawn correspondence course. Ted Brewer had the Yacht Design Institute briefly, another correspondence course. Then along came The Landing School and they offered a one year program in yacht design. They have now been joined by the university at Southampton with a 4 year program. The only one I am aware of.

So the typical way for any student to get into the yacht design field has been to get a college degree in some related field say like mechanical engineering and then through an apprenticeship style arrangement begin to get into the world of yacht design. After serving in an entry level position the student can move onto other design offices where he can begin to hone his skills. If you want to know exactly how I did it you can buy my book. I lay it out in detail there. After a few years of working in other recognized offices I began to think that I could do it on my own. History shows I was right. It took balls to make that move.

I had as many as four people working for me in my office at one time. I preferred college graduates but I didn't look for any yacht design degrees. They weren't available at the time. I thought that a degree in something showed me the applicant could focus on a goal and achieve it. Primarily I wanted to see drawings. Show me you can design. Over the years I had some very talented help. Tim Kernan and Mark Mills have gone on to both be quite successful on their own. Tim came from The Landing School an d Mark from the university at Southampton. It is a very good school. Juan K. Came from there too.

While I have no formal credentials myself I have taken in interns from all over the world who need to serve an internship in order to graduate from their school. I have had several from Southampton and several from The Landing School. Many times these interns lived in my home while they did their internships. Kind of ironic that students gain credit by working for me while I have no formal credentials.

There is no one way to become a yacht designer. For me it's a "show me what you can do" situation. Show me your designs. When I was hiring I valued professional quality drafting at a very high level. I have found consistently that those who value the initials after their name usually have nothing else to show. I had one job applicant with a degree as a NA from U of Michigan, great school. He gave up after 2.5 days working in my office. Poor kid didn't have a creative bone in his body. Couldn't draw worth a damn. He already had business cards printed with NA after his name.He went on to be quite successfully selling plastic piping. While there were no formal standards to establish who could call themselves a "yacht designer" I had my own rigid set of standards and I still do. I'm certain there are many ways you can measure design skill. I know my way works.

I could have joined SNAME, the Society for naval architects and marine engineers. I could have written SNAME after my name. Whoop dee doo! But I have only ever known one yacht designer who joined and used the initials. I seem to recall that Bruce Farr received the O.B.E.. I'd sure as hell put that after my name but I have never seen Bruce use it.

So, very sorry Classic. I can't provide you a short cut so you can identify a good designer. You'll just have to think on your own and look at the body of work. If there is no existing body of work you will have to have a long talk with the designer and ask to see drawings and sketches. You should ask enough questions to determine the designer has a solid grasp of the elements of naval architecture.

That's about it.
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  #2568  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
Statistics from Consumer Reports show that the average life span of a new vehicle is 150,000 miles
More meaningless info from Consumer Reports. I do not understand how that organization stays in existence - EVERYTHING they have reported on that I have personally experienced has been complete bull$hit.

Cars lasted 150K back in the 60's. Today if you change the oil once in a while they will easily last 250K and more. A well kept and maintained car will look virtually new at 100K these days.

CR is probably factoring in all the cars that are scrapped for ANY reason in that stat, not just the ones that are worn out.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

One of the things Bob discussed but I think may be a bit of a generalization is that we are talking about a NA in the private market. I have a lot of friends in the NA field here in New Orleans that do use letters after their names, BUT they work primarily in the oil and gas industry where certifications mean everything.

When every design change has to be signed off by someone with the proper credentials then either you have them or not. In the private market things are not as ridged, and for good reason. Could you imagine the additional cost of having a corrosion engineer check off the plans for every boat? Or a fire safety engineer sign them off? It just would not be reasonable, so for the private market designers do things like use 'best practice' or 'time tested' methods, and we accept them because they are exactly that time tested and proven.

Otherwise simple things we take for granted would become hopelessly complicated, and very expensive. To gain nothing in the value of the product.
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Last edited by Stumble; 12-02-2013 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 12-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Some talk back on the thread about well designed work boats to be beautiful. Everything well designed can be beautiful. I saw these videos and I remember that conversation. It's about tugs and I found the two types beautiful, the mother one with some references to the past and the traditional type.





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