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  #2621  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
There are always trends, and heavy boats are expensive so there's a sweet spot for manufacturers where scantlings are not onerous and generous sail area to Displacement is achieved at lower cost.
A top performance bluewater cruiser made of carbon is certainly not less expensive than an old designed heavy cruiser.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
And they are the certainly boats of choice for a lot of people and they suit some sailing lifestyles admirably. The heavier the boat the greater the loads the the more costly the material and the larger the required sail area for the same performance. But the flip side is greater comfort both at sea and at anchor. Also a greater internal volume and an increased 'homeliness' feel of the boat, and alos the greater it's stores carrying ability.
But not a good cash cow for production boat builders because most of the target market cross bays not oceans .

They are certainly not becoming a thing of the past, just they suit a different lifestyle to the raft of production boats that fill marinas in the clement sailing areas of the world.
You know, there are a market for voyage production boats, much smaller than the main market because has you said the ones that voyage extensively are a small percentage of sailors, but the market exists and several brands work on it. Also several top NA offer different types of voyage boats. I don't know a single one that can be considered heavy, the kind of boat that would not matter having a hull built in steel instead of aluminium.

Perhaps you don't mind to tell of what modern designs you are talking about, those heavy boats that suit many and who is designing them?

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Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
Look at the sailboats in my area where any passage offshore ( and often coastal) is 'boisterous', probably close to 70% of cruising sailboats are medium heavy to heavy displacment and nearly all the offshore cruising boats that cruise into the Pacific from here are. Popular designs from NZ and Australian designers abound here. Multihulls are almost non existant here, rough water strong variable winds and good deep anchorages and few marinas, conditions that are often the hallmark of higher latitude sailing around the globe.

In other areas with more benign conditions you'll hear the multitude of multihull owners declaring that monohulls are a thing of the past. Monohulls carry ballast and weight is bad..............
I don't agree that a big offshore well designed multihull is less seaworthy than a monohull.
Many cruise extensively and circumnavigate and are the boat of choice for many that voyage extensively.

You mean that in all those boats you see on that area of yours you don't see a single modern boat, I mean contemporary designs? They are all old designed heavy boats?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-04-2013 at 09:01 PM.
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  #2622  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes, you say a lot of things like that and they don't mean nothing. What about saying what you thing about the subject?

Regards

Paulo
BFD probably sums it up quite well.
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  #2623  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
BFD probably sums it up quite well.
BFD? What do you mean?

Regards

Paulo
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  #2624  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Gosh, so many experts here it's intimidating.
I just seem like an expert. I actually know absolutely nothing.

Oh, you mean the other guys.
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  #2625  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't want to start an argument but that is a pretty conservative talk specially in what regards that story about Ted Brewer comfort ratio and also about "The best advice for anyone and especially designers is to sail offshore on different types of boats and see the difference".

You know, many of the best French designers had an offshore racing past with lots of transats over their bellies and certainly they have also sailed old designed heavy boats and what they design as passagemakers and voyage boats certainly would not meat that criteria of yours regarding Ted Brewer comfort ratio.

Regards

Paulo

Like the racing ULDB master French sailor Eric Taberly ,
Who spent all his other sailing time (when not on a mad dash) on heavy displacement designs that he loved with a passion :-)

There's often a sneering contempt from one type of boat owner for another persons choice. But I find that people who have actually wracked up a lot of sea time are never judgmental. All sailing is fun all boats have their pluses and minuses that's the nature of optimising a design for a particular use.
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  #2626  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I would certainly appreciate Bob Perry's opinion on this subject of weight.
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  #2627  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
..........
I don't agree that a big offshore well designed multihull is less seaworthy than a monohull.
Nor I providing it's well sailed....

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
..........You mean that in all those boats you see on that area of yours you don't see a single modern boat, I mean contemporary designs? They are all old designed heavy boats?

Regards

Paulo
I said 70% were heavier designs. That leaves 30% as lighter boats, of those boats few sail across the Tasman but are used more for coastal cruising and racing.

My wife and I have two sailboats, a 45 foot performance cruiser ( Adams 45) that's great for coastal sailing, does 8 knots without being pushed too hard, has a fin keel, skeg rudder and is a real joy to sail. But she exceeds my limits for motion sickness in heavy weather offshore and renders many of the crew I've had pretty miserable if it blows a bit.
My wife isn't keen to go offshore on her anymore as the motion sends her to her bunk for days of rough weather as it did another female friend the entire trip from Auckland to Fiji. So we decided to get a heavier boat and a bigger boat with more comforts for an ageing lady aboard a sailboat

Our other boat acquired two years ago later is a much heavier both by weight and by ratios, steel ketch, it's a bit longer at 52' LWL ( a more recent Pugh design) that performs about the same, that's significant, it's a dog relatively but it's no slower than the other boat and it is a real home to be aboard long term, it's also surprisingly easy to sail and so much more comfortable in heavy weather I'm happy with it but my wife is ecstatic.

I still prefer to sail the lighter boat. Its exciting

Where do you base your boat? Portugal has an exposed west coast and I experienced a westerly gale off Lisbon a few years ago. Nice hassle free anchorage at Faro but Lisbon is a bit busy.

Last edited by MikeJohns; 12-05-2013 at 12:07 AM.
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  #2628  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Paulo:
Chill.
You know I am a smart ass.
I am enjoying reading what other people have to say. If I feel the need to chime in and contribute I most certainly will. Always have. Have you not been paying attention? So far I think the information being spread around is good and I have nothing of value to add.

I'll just sit back here on the Group W bench and read and learn. Mike is doing a fine job.

(Paulo is not going to have a clue what the "group W bench" is. He can Google it.)
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Last edited by bobperry; 12-05-2013 at 12:18 AM.
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  #2629  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Group W bench.....hmmmmmmmm.........is that like the back of the bus seat area?!?!?!?!? or some other equal where the SA's go to kaitz about what is going on the front?!?!?!?

I'd probably like that place.....lololol

saw sliver from out side the bldg yesterday, looking like she is getting ready to get a rig on her, splash then out to BI!

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  #2630  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
...
There's often a sneering contempt from one type of boat owner for another persons choice. But I find that people who have actually wracked up a lot of sea time are never judgmental. All sailing is fun all boats have their pluses and minuses that's the nature of optimising a design for a particular use.
Yes, I agree about that but that has nothing about the point in discussion that is: Modern designed passage makers and voyage boats are not heavy boats, considering heavy the type of boats that would make no difference in having a hull made of steel or aluminium.

That kind of heavy boats, in what concerns sailboat design, are a thing of the past. That does not mean that they are not still used or even that they can be suited for what they do, only that in what regards today's design options and knowledge it is possible to design an overall better voyage boat than those types of boats and that's why there is not any top NA still designing them, even as a on off.

Regards

Paulo
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