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  #2651  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
Chill.
You know I am a smart ass.
I am enjoying reading what other people have to say. If I feel the need to chime in and contribute I most certainly will. Always have. Have you not been paying attention? So far I think the information being spread around is good and I have nothing of value to add.

I'll just sit back here on the Group W bench and read and learn. Mike is doing a fine job.

(Paulo is not going to have a clue what the "group W bench" is. He can Google it.)
I had to look it up, only to discover that it's where I've been sitting all these years.
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  #2652  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Very funny Jon.
Me too.
Not sure how Alice's Restaurant would play in Portugal. It was a time specific piece.
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  #2653  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
You are lucky in that you are open to the new and you know very well what works best to give you the utmost enjoyment under sail. Performance is always a moving target. It was only 39 years ago (wow!) that some people thought the Valiant 40 with a D/L of 250 was "too light" to be a serious cruising boat. A well known designer at the time wrote that in YACHTING magazine. But he's not well known today and I doubt you have even heard of him. That tells me something.

I'm afraid any answers I may have will continue to be "twisted". I want to leave plenty of room for personal preferences. God forbid I fall into the BS approach that "It's my way or you are stupid" trap.

When people frequently ask me what boat I would choose for myself I am hard pressed to answer. I think it would depend on the day, the conditions, what I wanted to do with the boat and my mood.

Today it is 28 degrees F here at the shack. There is no wind. There are no waves. I think if I were going to head off for a few days today I would pick a pilot house BaBa 40. I could motor along at 7.5 knots snug inside at the inside steering station nursing a rum toddy with some nice Schubert on the hi-fi, some beef short ribs braising on the stove and my dog curled up on the settee. I'd pick a quiet harbor, maybe Matts Matts, anchor and relax comfortably depressed.
Bob, I don't buy that. Yes performance is a moving target and yes I too like all types of boats for all types of sailing and cruising and I understand that today you would wanted to pick a boat with the characteristics of a Pilot house but if you today designed a boat to fulfill the same criteria of the Baba 40, you would be designing a different boat, one that would be an all around better performer and you know that too.

So yes, there is boats designed to perform better in many different situations, from daysailors to voayage boats but the ones that are made today for fulfill the same functions are all around better boats than the ones designed 20 years ago, not to mention 30, 50 or 100 years ago and the reason is the same. Yacht design is in constant evolution and more knowledge and more modern materials allows for better sailingboats.

Regarding heavy boats, boats with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300, they are not used anymore in boat design. Even the ones that today are considered heavy, like the Najad, Halberg-Rassy, Oyster or Amel are in fact medium height boats and they are used and designed to perform the same type of sailing old heavy boats were designed to perform, including comfort, only they do it better, faster and more comfortably.

Regarding having a boat, we all would like to have a boat for each situation and type of weather we sail but as that is not possible choices and compromises have to be made regarding the boat that better fulfill the conditions and the pleasures we want to have while sailing and there are many possible choices even in what regards the market.

Regarding the boat that I posted, it was a passage maker. My ideal boat 4 years later was still a passage maker but a better boat, one faster and more polyvalent but some more years later it was not a passage maker anymore. I found out that my wife would not sail with me if I crossed oceans, I find out also that I do no wanted to be faraway from my kids and family for years and that I would prefer to cruise in the spring and summer but to be with the family in the winter. That translated in a new type of boat as my ideal boat. Even the same sailor, if he is not dumb, can have, according to his changing desires and situations different types of ideal boats along his live but rarely are the ones that can have 3 or 4 boats, one for each particular occasion

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-05-2013 at 05:19 PM.
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  #2654  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"Regarding heavy boats, boats with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300, they are not used anymore."

Paulo:
That is just not at all true. You are living in a vacuum. I have several designs that have full keels and D/L's around or even over 300. There are about 100 Baba 40's and they are all over. We must have half a dozen here in the PNW. We get at least three every year at the Perry Rendezvous. My pal raced his to Hawaii a few years back. They are very much used.

George Day of BLUE WATER SAILING said a few years back that there are more Tayana 37's world cruising than any other boat. They are getting used. They built 600 Tayana 37's!!!

I have Baba 30's, Tashiba 31's, Tashiba 36's, CT 54's, CT56's all heavy boats with full keels and all seeing a lot of use today.

So when you say, "they are not used anymore" you could not be more wrong.

Maybe they go by you so fast that you don't even see them. They are all rockets.




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  #2655  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Out:
I can work in heavy boats or light boats. It depends what the client wants. Both types have their distinct advantages. If you are going offshore and want lots of tankage you are not going to get it in a light boat. PERIOD.
For me displacement will be a fucntion of the intended use of the boat coupled with the owner's preferences and sailing style.
Bob,

As I read this, (and some of MikeJohns comments) there is a piece of this quote that I would like to comment on and hear both your's and Mike's thoughts. I know that I have stated my viewpoint on this on any number of occasions around here and its a position that Paulo perhaps would agree with as well.

I think that the terms " heavy boats" or "light boats" are somewhat misapplied in common usage. In my mind, these terms get applied in a manner that is shorthand for "heavy boats for their length" or "light boats for their length". My sense is that that partricular 'shorthand' sends the wrong message.

When I think about how 'big' a boat needs to be for any given owner, it starts with its stated purpose in terms of where and how the owner's plan to sail the boat, how many people are involved. That somewhat dictates the carrying capacity and the need for more or less robustness.

Once you get to a needed carrying capacity, and bearing in mind the need for more or less robustness, from there I would think its pretty easy to back into an approximate target displacement for that vessel fully loaded and from there its capacity empty.

At that point it becomes a question of picking the "just right" length. I know that there are folks who prefer a short boat for its weight. But disregarding those folk's personal preference for a moment, I suggest that the science would say that, within reason, a longer boat of the same displacement and robustness is likely to offer better accommodations, better motion comfort, more seaworthiness, and better performance than a shorter boat of the same displacement. The longer for its weight boat should also be easier to sail to sail since it would be easier to design the boat with more stability, and a more efficient keel, rudder, and sail plan.

So, if I were going distance cruising I would inherently choose the longer boat for its displacement, specifically to improve seakindliness, with the improvement in performance being a secondary consideration. That would of course fly in the face of the US court of public opinion, which says, using the usual shorthand, "a heavy boat (for its length) is more comfortable" when in fact the reality is a longer boat for its equal weight is more comfortable.

In reality, when you look at the trends in what we normally might think of as modern distance cruisers, they are tending towards being longer boats for their weight, and seem to deliver a more comfortable motion than shorter equal weight boats. That trend has been going on nearly as long as the 50 plus years that I have been sailing.

But the other oddities of perception which does not seem to make sense is the way that D/L's are bandied about. Obviously, there is a good reason for L/D being based on waterline length. But over the period that I have been sailing, waterline length has gotten progressively longer relative to length on deck. I keep hearing people talk about the motion comfort of the good old boats with L/D's in the high 200's but in reality, modern boats are not all that much lighter for their lengths on deck. They just have longer water lines which make these boats appear to be much lighter when comparing L/D's. The real gotcha in that, is that if we compare two equal length on deck with equal displacements, all other things being approximately equal the boat with the longer waterline is likely to have the more comfortable motion. That of course also flies in the face of the beliefs rendered by the court of public opinion.

Any thoughts?

Jeff
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  #2656  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"Regarding heavy boats, boats with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300, they are not used anymore."

Paulo:
That is just not at all true. You are living in a vacuum. I have several designs that have full keels and D/L's around or even over 300. There are about 100 Baba 40's and they are all over. We must have half a dozen here in the PNW. We get at least three every year at the Perry Rendezvous. My pal raced his to Hawaii a few years back. They are very much used.

...
So when you say, "they are not used anymore" you could not be more wrong.

Maybe they go by you so fast that you don't even see them. They are all rockets.

...
That's my time to say: chill out Bob

My poor English has some responsibility but you have completely misunderstood what I wanted to say. I was talking about a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300 not being used anymore in boat design. I was talking about boat design but I edited the post anyway to be more clear. Any other way would not make any sense.

Sure, all those boats are rockets but less rockets then modern designed boats for the same funtion

We can say that in what regards contemporary yacht design we can say that any cruising boat with 10 years is not at the state of the art and a racing boat in less time, about 5 years. What I said regards this.

I don't now of any relevant designer that had designed for any type of sailing in the last 10 years a boat with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300.

Do you have designed any of those on the last 10 years?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-05-2013 at 05:33 PM.
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  #2657  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I think that the Displacement/Length ratio has nothing to do with the weight of a boat. It is an effective tool to compare 2 boats of the same type. But the boat with the lower D/L ratio is not necessarily lighter. There are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 100 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Bob,

As I read this, (and some of MikeJohns comments) there is a piece of this quote that I would like to comment on and hear both your's and Mike's thoughts. I know that I have stated my viewpoint on this on any number of occasions around here and its a position that Paulo perhaps would agree with as well.

I think that the terms " heavy boats" or "light boats" are somewhat misapplied in common usage. In my mind, these terms get applied in a manner that is shorthand for "heavy boats for their length" or "light boats for their length". My sense is that that partricular 'shorthand' sends the wrong message.

When I think about how 'big' a boat needs to be for any given owner, it starts with its stated purpose in terms of where and how the owner's plan to sail the boat, how many people are involved. That somewhat dictates the carrying capacity and the need for more or less robustness.

Once you get to a needed carrying capacity, and bearing in mind the need for more or less robustness, from there I would think its pretty easy to back into an approximate target displacement for that vessel fully loaded and from there its capacity empty.

At that point it becomes a question of picking the "just right" length. I know that there are folks who prefer a short boat for its weight. But disregarding those folk's personal preference for a moment, I suggest that the science would say that, within reason, a longer boat of the same displacement and robustness is likely to offer better accommodations, better motion comfort, more seaworthiness, and better performance than a shorter boat of the same displacement. The longer for its weight boat should also be easier to sail to sail since it would be easier to design the boat with more stability, and a more efficient keel, rudder, and sail plan.

So, if I were going distance cruising I would inherently choose the longer boat for its displacement, specifically to improve seakindliness, with the improvement in performance being a secondary consideration. That would of course fly in the face of the US court of public opinion, which says, using the usual shorthand, "a heavy boat (for its length) is more comfortable" when in fact the reality is a longer boat for its equal weight is more comfortable.

In reality, when you look at the trends in what we normally might think of as modern distance cruisers, they are tending towards being longer boats for their weight, and seem to deliver a more comfortable motion than shorter equal weight boats. That trend has been going on nearly as long as the 50 plus years that I have been sailing.

But the other oddities of perception which does not seem to make sense is the way that D/L's are bandied about. Obviously, there is a good reason for L/D being based on waterline length. But over the period that I have been sailing, waterline length has gotten progressively longer relative to length on deck. I keep hearing people talk about the motion comfort of the good old boats with L/D's in the high 200's but in reality, modern boats are not all that much lighter for their lengths on deck. They just have longer water lines which make these boats appear to be much lighter when comparing L/D's. The real gotcha in that, is that if we compare two equal length on deck with equal displacements, all other things being approximately equal the boat with the longer waterline is likely to have the more comfortable motion. That of course also flies in the face of the beliefs rendered by the court of public opinion.

Any thoughts?

Jeff
Yes, I would say that is obvious...even if not for all

Nice post Jeff.

You talk about public opinion and I would say that's all that very clear to an European sailor and that's why you see bigger boats here.

I would say that my 41 ft boat is under average in the med, and much under average if we consider only recent boats.

Average if not yet, is going faster to around 45ft and it is not by accident that you see a range like Sense from Benetau, one that does not point to charter but to the ones that buy boats after retirement to live a considerable time in them, start at 46ft.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-05-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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  #2659  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
I think that the Displacement/Length ratio has nothing to do with the weight of a boat..........There are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 100 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.
With all due respect, I am not sure that you precisely meant either of those things. While D/L is intended to be a non-scalar way of comparing the relative displacement of boats, obviously, the D in the D/L is weight, so weight does something to do with D/L.

But I think that the second sentence above is probably a typo. I suspect that probably (and would agree with you if) you meant to say, there are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 200 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 12-05-2013 at 06:23 PM.
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  #2660  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
With all due respect, I am not sure that you precisely meant either of those things. While D/L is intended to be a non-scalar way of comparing the relative displacement of boats, obviously, the D in the D/L is weight, so weight does something to do with D/L.

But I think that the second sentence above is probably a typo. I suspect that probably (and would agree with you if) you meant to say, there are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 200 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.
Lets take a boat like the Alberg 37, D/L of 403 on a 26.5' waterline. If the waterline is drawn out to say 32' it would be heavier with the added material weight, not lighter. But it would have a lower D/L ratio.
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