Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 268 - SailNet Community
 1723Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #2671 of 5317 Old 12-05-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,116
Thanks: 1
Thanked 95 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

VF:
Thank you.
I'll see you a dinner tomorrow night.
Thank God there is a brain left. There is hope.

Miti:
Time you made the trip down here to the shack. I'll take care of you.
But with Sailing Anarchy people from all over the world and my usuals from North America
I am getting booked up for Christmas.

December 16th guests arrive from Australia. Fair dinkum. I have never met these people but they are welcome at the shack

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bobperry is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2672 of 5317 Old 12-05-2013
Junior Member
 
aeventyr60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Andaman Sea
Posts: 2,326
Thanks: 25
Thanked 63 Times in 60 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by VFerreira View Post
Bob is BS.

No, No He is the BFD!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



"Your dreams minus your doubts equals your net worth"

Life is a short journey, filled with emptiness and pain. Get all the sailing and booty you can.

Last edited by aeventyr60; 12-05-2013 at 10:13 PM. Reason: Tried to add a smile..
aeventyr60 is offline  
post #2673 of 5317 Old 12-05-2013
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by VFerreira View Post
Sundeer is dead. Long live Beowulf.


Humm, he is too ugly you can have it all for yourself!!!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PCP is offline  
post #2674 of 5317 Old 12-05-2013
Last Man Standing
 
smackdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 14,346
Thanks: 147
Thanked 131 Times in 124 Posts
Rep Power: 9
     
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by VFerreira View Post


Gajo, I have wet dreams about it.

Well then, just have Brent build you one. Easy-peasy.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
smackdaddy is offline  
post #2675 of 5317 Old 12-06-2013
Senior Member
 
mitiempo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,486
Thanks: 0
Thanked 94 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 8
   
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I've never seen Beowulf except in pics. I met the Dashews in 1991 in Victoria when they were returning from Alaska in the original 67' Sundeer. There is a lot to be said for bare aluminum and its utilitarian looks and minimal upkeep.

While everything they have done is big dollar the trend of long, lean, and minimal overhangs is common to many designs, including Bob's Saga 35 and 43 and Chuck Paine's Bougainvillea series. An easily driven boat that has very balanced lines at an angle of heel makes sense and overhangs, other that for rating rules and beauty in the eyes of some, really don't make sense in terms of speed and longitudinal stability. Workboats the world over would have them if they were of any practical use - very few do.

I think many agree that boats should be compared by displacement rather than length. This makes sense both on a dollar to build basis as well as handling ability. After all the Sundeer 60, while thought of as a large boat is only slightly heavier than a Valiant 50 and 12,000 lbs lighter than Yoni.

I think my ideal boat (for now) would be an aluminum boat of about 50' like a Saga 43 but with not much more beam if any, no overhangs, and a hard dodger. Rigged as a double headsail sloop, like the Saga.

Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour

Last edited by mitiempo; 12-06-2013 at 01:14 AM.
mitiempo is offline  
post #2676 of 5317 Old 12-06-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Orleans Louisiana
Posts: 2,330
Thanks: 7
Thanked 80 Times in 76 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

One of the things that I have found is that the 'perfect' boat is a moving target.

When I was a kid the 'perfect' boat was a SouthCoast 21 simple because I could afford to own it from what I made cleaning boat hulls.

When the family was cruising I happen to think the Irwin 54' was pretty close to perfect, it was big slow, and sailed like a pig. But it was great for a family of five to live on.

When I was racing OD the J-22 was perfect because it was the big fleet around here.

For now the Beneteau is perfect for weekending with the wife.

Soon I am thinking a VX OD may be the perfect boat, because the fleet is growing and the price is right....

Greg Rubin
Attorney
Stumble is offline  
post #2677 of 5317 Old 12-06-2013
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hobart
Posts: 94
Thanks: 6
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...............
We can say that in what regards contemporary yacht design we can say that any cruising boat with 10 years is not at the state of the art and a racing boat in less time, about 5 years. What I said regards this.............Paulo
Paulo

Outside of production boats many new boats are built in small yards from designs that came out decades ago and are just the pick of the proven offerings that would be very hard to improve on. They come from a variety of popular design offices. I can’t see that changing much for that type of boat which is still popular in many places. Like here.

The turning point to 'more modern' was a more modern underbody which started what maybe 50 years ago. like the gains to larger boats changing from a full to a 3/4 keel and skeg rudder. It's still hard to better that underbody shape for a larger boat with a limited draft and low aspect vortex lift keel. Except for minor gains such as maybe adding some balance to the rudder to reduce steering gear loads. But apart from that what would you change given a fixed displacement and a target Cp for what you call a modern design ?

I have redesigned heavier full keel boats from well known designers like Charles Wittholz to good effect with a fin keel and a balanced rudder and they have certainly made better boats than the original. But there are many good tried older designs that are extant already. People are still having them built or building them themselves.
Brent Swain likes this.
MikeJohns is offline  
post #2678 of 5317 Old 12-06-2013
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
Paulo

Outside of production boats many new boats are built in small yards from designs that came out decades ago and are just the pick of the proven offerings that would be very hard to improve on. They come from a variety of popular design offices. I can’t see that changing much for that type of boat which is still popular in many places. Like here.

The turning point to 'more modern' was a more modern underbody which started what maybe 50 years ago. like the gains to larger boats changing from a full to a 3/4 keel and skeg rudder. It's still hard to better that underbody shape for a larger boat with a limited draft and low aspect vortex lift keel. Except for minor gains such as maybe adding some balance to the rudder to reduce steering gear loads. But apart from that what would you change given a fixed displacement and a target Cp for what you call a modern design ?

I have redesigned heavier full keel boats from well known designers like Charles Wittholz to good effect with a fin keel and a balanced rudder and they have certainly made better boats than the original. But there are many good tried older designs that are extant already. People are still having them built or building them themselves.
I know that. Amateurs and low budget builders are still using old designs but that designs do not represent the state of the art and they are just building from old plans because they are cheap and cannot afford a brand new plan from a major NA. I have been there, I mean planning to have my one boat building and I was doing just that, trying to improve over an existent affordable design with already some years. Not the top of the crop, I am afraid but the best I could afford.

Mass production shipyards or even smaller shipyards that produce boats have the money to command true contemporary designs of all types from the best NA, designs that represent the state of the art.

I agree with you that the gains from the last generation (10 years ago) from the next generation is not big but still meaningful. But each generation shows improvements over the last and the difference from a contemporary design (of any type) with a 30 year's old design is huge, not only in performance but in interior comfort,available space and the living quality of the space.

We can notice better that evolution on mass produced boats because the competition there is huge and they are forced to make always better boats to keep up with the competition and for that they command work from the best NA, even if that is expensive. They have not a choice except to have the better designed boat they can get.

They normally change the hull of a given model each 7 years or so and in between they make a MKII with the same hull. They change the cabin design and the interior, improving the rigging layout. I don't know of any European brand whose actual model was worst than the previous one, in comfort, performance or easiness of sail. They have to do so or they go out of business.

There is not this kind of pressure on the amateur or semi amateur boat building sector and there the priorities are others like having a boat easy to build, affordable but not too old plans and an overall not bad sailing.

Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 12-06-2013 at 07:29 AM.
PCP is offline  
post #2679 of 5317 Old 12-06-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 2,251
Thanks: 52
Thanked 43 Times in 40 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Paulo- Still think there is great merit in what Mike says. Undoubtedly with each passing year design and material advances are made. No one is arguing that point. However, you continue to see very long runs of semi production boats or small production runs sometimes extending over decades. Examples include Hinckley, Morris, Valliant, Kanter, Rustler and my beloved Outbound. None of these boats are cheap and I would be very surprised if any are built as a first boat or for owners who have not done their due diligence. They do evolve and incorporate some of the latest and greatest in their systems but the basic structure remains unchanged. Mike points out they simply work and fill the needs of their owners. I sail a design first done in 2001. I knew that when I built it taking delivery in 2013. If I had to do over again I would do the same.
Faster and Brent Swain like this.

s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
outbound is offline  
post #2680 of 5317 Old 12-06-2013
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- Still think there is great merit in what Mike says. Undoubtedly with each passing year design and material advances are made. No one is arguing that point. However, you continue to see very long runs of semi production boats or small production runs sometimes extending over decades. Examples include Hinckley, Morris, Valliant, Kanter, Rustler and my beloved Outbound. None of these boats are cheap and I would be very surprised if any are built as a first boat or for owners who have not done their due diligence. They do evolve and incorporate some of the latest and greatest in their systems but the basic structure remains unchanged. Mike points out they simply work and fill the needs of their owners. I sail a design first done in 2001. I knew that when I built it taking delivery in 2013. If I had to do over again I would do the same.
You did not mention any European boat and for a good reason: The US market is much less competitive than the European market, with a much lower output and that means the development is slower and the boats remain competitive for more years even if the design is not at the state of the art no more.

Also some of the boats that you mention are not produced anymore and 10 or 20 years ago the developments were slower and the boats remained on the market for more time, even the European ones.

Finally two more factors, the conservatism of American sailors regarding anything that is new and the very low production of all those brands. Probably Halberg Rassy, a single high end brand produces more boats on a year that all those American Brands put together and even in what regards boats sold only to the US I bet the difference should not be that big.

There are also In Europe some small familiar firms that keep producing models, most of them traditional, that don't change models so frequently. Many times those models are not designed by top NA but by the builder himself. Europe has also his number of conservative sailors but in much less number than the American ones.

Anyway neither those sailors nor those brands pretend they are producing top of the art boats in what refers design, building techniques or materials. They are satisfied with high quality traditional workmanship and with boats that are beautiful and sail relatively well.

Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PCP is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
C & C 24 pros and cons chuckg Boat Review and Purchase Forum 13 05-20-2015 12:05 AM
Hunter 36 Pros and Cons? turfguy Hunter 15 08-25-2014 05:08 PM
Pros and Cons of Catalina 350?? turfguy C350 6 10-16-2009 05:17 PM
Watermakers—Pros and Cons Tom Wood Cruising Articles 0 06-11-2002 08:00 PM
Steel Hulls—Pros and Cons Sue & Larry Buying a Boat Articles 0 09-12-2001 08:00 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome