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  #2681  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Paulo- guess England (Rustler) is not part of Europe. Guess neither is Scandinavia where the HR 46 mark 2 is still getting new orders. Nor the fine aluminum boats from K+M using a nearly 20y.o design for the Bestever. You know this market better than me I'm sure you can up with others if you think on it.
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  #2682  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Also think about the new boats Oyster, Amel, HR and others have put out this year and last. They are still 180 d/l or higher. Still don't have the ultra wide stern quarters with twin rudders. But are still being newly designed and produced by European house. Surely given these boats are 1m and up and tooling/design costs are very significant there remains another school of thought than yours concerning the European market.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- guess England (Rustler) is not part of Europe. Guess neither is Scandinavia where the HR 46 mark 2 is still getting new orders. Nor the fine aluminum boats from K+M using a nearly 20y.o design for the Bestever. You know this market better than me I'm sure you can up with others if you think on it.
regards
Regarding the Rustler, yes the British are a conservative lot and the Ruster still has in its line some old designs. But one thing is to have it on catalog other is having someone buying them and unfortunately for Rustler that's the case. They are trying to make a last effort to survive and will present 3 new boats next year, modern boats, the Rustler 53, the 63 and the 37. I hope it is not too late for them.

Regarding the HR 46 I don't know od what you are talking about. The boat is not in production anymore, was built in 132 units and the last one was built almost 10 years ago.

Regarding the Bestevaer I don't understand also what you are talking about regarding a 20 year old design. There are not only a model but several deigned at different times. The First one was designed by Gerard Dijkstra as his personal boat in 2003 if I am not mistaken, it was a 53ft boat. Here you have all models built:

Yachts / K&M Yachtbuilders

Bestevaer 45ST was recently nominated for European boat of the year and is a 2011 design.

Anyway this is not what I call a production boat.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Also think about the new boats Oyster, Amel, HR and others have put out this year and last. They are still 180 d/l or higher. Still don't have the ultra wide stern quarters with twin rudders. But are still being newly designed and produced by European house. Surely given these boats are 1m and up and tooling/design costs are very significant there remains another school of thought than yours concerning the European market.
All the boats you have mentioned are very recent designs and designed by some of the best NA. Do you think that all contemporary designed sailboats have twin rudders or ultra wide sterns? Mine has not

There are several lines of development in what regards contemporary modern design and even if twin rudders and boats based on Open boats hulls are a strong tendency there are more tendencies and the boats are not necessarily very light, depending of the type of boat, even if lighter than the same type of boats 10 years ago. The only that are light are the performance cruiser. You don't have performance sailing with heavy boats.

By the way, you are wrong about the Oyster, I mean some of them have twin rudders.



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Paulo
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

sorry Paulo I'm at work so got sizes wrong. but it seems we agree more than I first thought. Still if you look at these hulls it supports Mike's point. They are not significantly different than prior boats in d/l or basic architecture. Wolfie was the extreme of this argument and seemed to have trouble accepting significant advances have been made. I tend to agree more with Mike and Bob. I like all boats when done well. New, cutting edge, or old. But for the sailing I hope to do the 2001 design fits just fine and there are not other boats currently being made that have the features I wanted. I think this type of hull continues to be refined but it is an evolutionary change with relatively minor changes. I think in coastal, performance and high latitude a paradigm shift has occurred and that will now subside to evolutionary changes over years.
?I thought the 2011 boat for K+M was a glass version of the prior aluminum boat of that size. I further thought the others in that range varied in size and appendages but very little in basic hull configuration. Was berthed next to the new Amel at the Annapolis show. It looks very different than their prior boats but from what I can gather the hull shape is not at all radical. Some of their systems and accommodations are quite striking in new design elements. Think what Mike and I are saying is for long term/range cruising boats there is a type of boat the public still wants which has not changed much in the last 10-15years. The moderate displacement hull with little overhang, bulbed keel and balance spade seems to have been the paradigm shift and that occurred some time ago. I fully accept the high latitude and performance cruising folks are looking at very different boats and that paradigm shift is more recent.
P.S.- after my boat 3 more have been built and more are on the way. I believe Bob is in the process of a redesign to generate another version but the hull remains the same. This would suggest ,at least on this side of the pond, the demand for this type of boat to a select group of sailors still exists. I still think the new HR etc. also fit this mold. and apologize not being able to quote the correct size.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
... Think what Mike and I are saying is for long term/range cruising boats there is a type of boat the public still wants which has not changed much in the last 10-15years. ....
Nothing to apologize. I don't think Mike was talking about hulls with 10 or 15 years. Most designs that amateur boat builders buy for building their boats and are cheap on the market are much more older than that. The other option is asking for a new design to a good NA but that is not an option due to the price. If they would have that kind of money they would have their boat built by a shipyard.

Regarding sailors being satisfied or wanting old designed boats, if they wanted that, brands like Rustler would be selling a lot of boats and there would be on the mass market a big offer of that kind of boats. The fact that Rustler is not selling boats and is trying to survive changing the paradigm of its boats, turning to contemporary, designs shows that it is not that what sailors want.

Of course this does not mean that the ones that sail older boats and older designs are not perfectly satisfied with their boats that offer good service and cost (used) only a fraction of a new boat.

Means that the ones that have the money for buying new boats want nothing but the best in what regards quality of design, performance, quality of interior design. They want something that represents the state of the Art.

Regarding performance in the last 20 years curiously the bigger difference in performance regards main market cruising boats that today have a performance similar to the one of cruiser racers of that era. But even in what regards performance boats every new model is faster than the previous one (you can see that clearly on the boat rating) and 20 years is already a lot in what regards performance if those boats are used for cruising and an enormity if they are used also for club racing.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-06-2013 at 05:44 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Yes, I am working on raised salon version of the Outbound and they have two buyers lined up. It is a popular boat.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Yes, I am working on raised salon version of the Outbound and they have two buyers lined up. It is a popular boat.
It will be very different from this version?





If the Outbound was a European brand they would take the opportunity to make a MkII, maintaining the hull, modernizing the cabin design and giving you more creative liberty to re-design the new version. They could take the opportunity to redesign the basic version cabin too and modernize that keel. The one from the 52 has already a better and more modern design:



But I guess you would not get that luck and that's a pity for Outbound. I am sure you could make that boat look better.

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Yeah Paulo. Relax, Chill. Take a Euro break. Eat a sardine. I'll eat a salmon. No,,, not that stinlky farm raised salmon you guys get. I eat my salmon fresh out of the cold waters of the great PNW. I don't even feed my dogs farm raised salon. Yuk!

But I digress.

I am working on the drawings and I will do my best to make the boat look good. Those are not my drawings you posted. Don't let your fingers get ahead of your brain.

But it won't be another boooooriiing Euro styled boat that you can't tell one from the other. Does anybody over there have any original thought?

And performance:
" I can can do 6.8 knots to weather in my Euro boat."
" Golly gosh, I can only do 6.2 knots to weather in my US styled boat."
" Oh wo is me. How can I possibly have any fun when I am giving up .6 knots.?"
" All my friends will laugh at me."
"There goes Bob at 6.2 knots. He's going to die that's for sure. Poor sod. Think what he could have done with another .6 knots." "Damn!"
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Yeah Paulo. Relax, Chill. Take a Euro break. Eat a sardine. I'll eat a salmon.

I am working on the drawings and I will do my best to make the boat look good. Those are not my drawings you posted. Don't let your fingers get ahead of your brain.

But it won't be another boooooriiing Euro styled boat that you can't tell one from the other. Does anybody over there have any original thought?

And performance:
" I can can do 6.8 knots to weather in my Euro boat."
" Golly gosh, I can only do 6.2 knots to weather in my US styled boat."
" Oh wo is me. How can I possibly have any fun when I am giving up .6 knots.?"
" All my friends will laugh at me."
"There goes Bob at 6.2 knots. He's going to die that's for sure. Poor sod. Think what he could have done with another .6 knots." "Damn!"
They cab be pretty misleading on Outbound, sorry it seems that you had nothing to do with that drawing but as you can see it is them that have the wrong information on their site :



Regarding the difference between 6,2 and 6.8K on the same boat it is a huge one. Maybe we don't see things the same way. I like perfection on the aesthetically quality of the design and perfection on performance. If the boat can do 6.8K instead of 6.2K with the same hull, it is really a shame not to do the needed alterations.

O.6k in 6 hours are 3.6K and that's enough to disappear on the horizon. I like to leave boats behind, not letting them disappear on the horizon. On an Atlantic crossing on 17 days, that means 244 miles, almost 2 days. Yes you are right all my friends would laugh at me and more than that I would hate to be that slow.

Regarding the euro boats looking all the same and suffering from lack of creativity, I don't share your opinion but that's just a point of view. Most American boats, like the Outbound, look to me aesthetically just old designed boats in need of a design upgrade, even if on the case of the Oubound it is a shame since it seems to have a nice hull.

Do you think they look all alike and lack creativity?:





























Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-06-2013 at 11:15 PM.
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