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  #2691  
Old 12-06-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

We gave a cat some farm salmon, it wouldnt touch it.This being a cat will devour a whole fish in minutes.On the subject of the thread,Steel is betterer because a BS 36 would make rubble and flotsam out of all those high tech French boats in a good old fashioned demolition derby.All fear the power of origami.
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  #2692  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by jak3b View Post
..On the subject of the thread,Steel is betterer because a BS 36 would make rubble and flotsam out of all those high tech French boats in a good old fashioned demolition derby.All fear the power of origami.
For sure, happily they cab run away easily from it.

By the way, there is not a single French boat among those

regards

Paulo
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  #2693  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Good, I am glad no French boats were harmed in the making of this.Anyhow for some reason I cant post any pictures of whats going on right here in my backyard.True, we dont have the big production yards here anymore simply because there is no market for them.For instance My fathers Cal 33 was $27,500 in 1971.It was an affordable Family cruiser racer at the time.it would be $158,643.91 today.Wages have not kept up anywhere near inflation.An up to date,state of the art, Cal 33 equivelent,would more likely be 250 to 350k now.Its out of range for most people now.Our home at the time cost less than 100k.Today it is worth over 1 million dollars.There is a huge glut of good used boats on the market now.Yes they are old and out of date but they are affordable.I like sailing, I love being on the water, I dont really give damm if its an old boat or a state of the art high tech multi hull, If Im there Im happy.Ive done both and all points in between including commercial fishing boats and the odd barge;-).
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Old 12-07-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

If you are enough far away, all those distant things looks the same. From US, European boats are all look-a-like, and from Europe all the US boats looks similar. With some exceptions ... namely those we see more of, like the Jxxx (and then we can have yet another endless discussion if they are Eu or US).

Paolo looks for estetics and performance. Both qualities relevant in the context of "pro and cons of steel boats". In both cases ... steel boats doesn't cut it.

There are many other qualities in life, and in sailing. In some steel boats are on top. No doubt.

Now salmon and cats - what do they do in this?

/J
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Paulo- I've great respect for you and have a few minutes as I'm waiting on the server to do it's thing. So will have at it. We are at a variance. I think it's because how we approach life in general differently - so different strokes for different folks.
I agree because my keel is part of the initial layup with internal ballast it is an inch or two thicker than the very thin keels on the boats you post. Maybe I give up a small fraction of a knot because of this. However I will never worry about it falling off or need to maintain non existent keelbolts.
Maybe because the bulb is through bolted then glassed into the keel it also has a couple of inches of added width. But again no maintenance and brutally strong. Sisterships have had hard grounding with minimal damage easily repaired.
Again with a solid glass lay up of the entire hull - the hull has a few extra pounds. I seen multiple sisterships going back to hull #2 and they look like new in spite of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. My tanks are integral glass with epoxy. Built for the duration and add strength and rigidity. Again this type of construction is slightly heavier.
Even with just a half year of sailing we have had many 200+ days. After all even with these design elements we come in at 191 D/L. This boat is a brick out house in construction. To date no one has prayed to Neptune on her in spite of being in the snot on several occasions. The ride is outstanding. When we sea trialed this boat my wife on the drive back said "this is the one". This hull with weight centralized and it's heft rides like a Rolls.
I fully accept there is a minor penalty paid for this type of construction aimed at having a boat that will endure decades the type of cruising old farts like me do and still include all the creature comforts with the attendant weight this imposes. Still, on both sides of the pond and world at large there is a market for these boats. The one currently under construction will be delivered in China and sailed home to Oz as it's maiden voyage. The HRs, Oysters etc have similar D/Ls and allowing for lwl the same performance. Bob alludes to two of his new deck/infill design boats being under contract and mine with the new hard dodger has an audience. Paulo why are experienced sailors ( yes we get on those new fangled aeroplanes from time to time and go to the EU) are still building and buying this 2001 designed hull? Can it be you believe only those on the cutting edge are spending these massive amounts of money ( at least for me) correctly?
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Last edited by outbound; 12-07-2013 at 10:27 AM.
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  #2696  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

No Paulo, they are lovely. I really like the dark grey one. But to my eye, and that's the only eye I care about, there is a sameness to them. Hulls are almost all identical in general form. Stems are all plumb anbd we know that for cruising boats even fast cruising boats that some rake on the stem costs you very little in boat speed. If you doubt this do your own exhaustive VPP studies and report back. I have. Read my book and the chapter on bows. The boat you post all have chopped off sterns. I know why and it makes perfect sense. Look at my own AMATI. But this doesn't change the fact that they are all (of course there is the odd exception) doing it. Cabin trunks are similar and cockpits and deck layouts are treated pretty much the same way.

So there is definetely a sameness to these boats. But I suspect you don't see it. Of course there are minor differences in styling, one boat has a traditional rake to the transom. But, it's still chopped off. I find the boats you post almost all very good looking but I am getting a bit bored by the similarities. On the positive side I could say it this way, "They are all equally exciting and all equally good looking."

I like variety, change, exploring the edges of design possibilities. I have an ultra heavy Baba 30, a very successful boat. It sails very well and has done several circumnavigations, one solo.


I have the ultra light Flying Tiger 10m that won a major race in Florida (Wirth-Monroe) on Thursday against good competition. We have sold 120 of these. They are a blast to sail.


So these two boats show the opposing extremes of my work and I just about anything in between too. I like variety and individual expressions of design. Sameness is very boring to me.

I don't see any "argument" here. You have your preferences and I have mine. Your preferences are right for you but they are not right for me. Outbound looks at yachting through his own life experinecs and he has his own preferences. They work well for him. They won't work for you. They are not right and they are not wrong they are just his. It's all good and heaven forbid we ever live in a one size fits all world.

I think I can best sum up my design philosophy this way.
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Last edited by bobperry; 12-07-2013 at 10:41 AM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob- close fishing buddy came back from flying fishing salmon in Alaska. Got to see some of your bear buddies. Was told "never get between the fish you lay out on the shore and the bear.....you can catch more fish".
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Well said, both of you..

I really appreciate Paulo's 'interesting sailboats' thread for the eye-opening differences between NA and Euro markets, buyers' desires, builders outlooks and practices. It is a shame that there isn't more diversity in the NA market, but it is what it is.

I too find a 'sameness' in those rather spectacular examples posted by Paulo, much like today it's hard to look at a vehicle and 'know' who made it without seeing the badging.

Still, at the gut level I much prefer, (and would probably buy, had I the resources) boats with interiors more like the Passports than the recent Euro crop.. fully understanding that that's at odds with a lightweight, performance boat that I'd appreciate on other levels. I'd love to be the first to import a Salona, for example (but even then, likely a slightly older one with a closer-to-traditional finish below).

As Bob said.. it's up to each individual, we all have our opinions and preferences, it's all good. I think 'arguments' is too strong... how about 'lively discussions'?
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Back to this disCUSSion with a few moments to type.....

I was at a ski instructor initial season meeting a couple of weeks ago. The fellow in the front had done a survey a few years ago with what are supposed to be some of the top instructors in the US. "What is the most important thing to teach clients?" got a variety of answers regarding movements of the body, how the ski should interact with the snow etc. Similar to the things outbound and paulo are sorta kinda arguing about. Then he hits "Joe" his reply" what that person wants to learn that day!"........hmmmmmmmmm........why is this a good answer? as is BP's? Because if we all taught, designed, did the same thing, life would be boring. THe other reason, I recall my dad doing this for a couple that he had been working with, I do the same on certain runs with students. Is you only show/teach them how to deal with certain parts of the run! they have no experience trying to get down a narrow gulch, or narrow entry etc. So one has to hope they have the body ability, so body mechanics go out the door. Only tactics come into play.

If I asked for a dinghy to learn to sail be designed, an the designer came up with a wally 100 equal using the latest greatest materials etc. think I would be happy with said designer? oh, he painted everything browns and tans like an Italian building from 500 bc! I hate browns and tans. would prefer bright red! and I have a 100' boat designed, not a 10' lapstake style V nosed boat with a centerboard and folding up rudder in as best as one can get wherry look! hmmmmmmmmYou should have listened to me better than you did BP!!!!!!!!! blinken idjiot he is!:la ugher

so anyway, off to get breakfast with the leading lady, get some more lights on my boat, and put up a banner advertising my YC and our Holiday on the dock setup.

Bob, come down to Edmonds, I'm front and center with a couple of really suspect folks sailing my boat 24/7 at the dock!



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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- I've great respect for you and have a few minutes as I'm waiting on the server to do it's thing. So will have at it. We are at a variance. I think it's because how we approach life in general differently - so different strokes for different folks.
I agree because my keel is part of the initial layup with internal ballast it is an inch or two thicker than the very thin keels on the boats you post. Maybe I give up a small fraction of a knot because of this. However I will never worry about it falling off or need to maintain non existent keelbolts.
Maybe because the bulb is through bolted then glassed into the keel it also has a couple of inches of added width. But again no maintenance and brutally strong. Sisterships have had hard grounding with minimal damage easily repaired.
Again with a solid glass lay up of the entire hull - the hull has a few extra pounds. I seen multiple sisterships going back to hull #2 and they look like new in spite of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. My tanks are integral glass with epoxy. Built for the duration and add strength and rigidity. Again this type of construction is slightly heavier.
Even with just a half year of sailing we have had many 200+ days. After all even with these design elements we come in at 191 D/L. This boat is a brick out house in construction. To date no one has prayed to Neptune on her in spite of being in the snot on several occasions. The ride is outstanding. When we sea trialed this boat my wife on the drive back said "this is the one". This hull with weight centralized and it's heft rides like a Rolls.
I fully accept there is a minor penalty paid for this type of construction aimed at having a boat that will endure decades the type of cruising old farts like me do and still include all the creature comforts with the attendant weight this imposes. Still, on both sides of the pond and world at large there is a market for these boats. The one currently under construction will be delivered in China and sailed home to Oz as it's maiden voyage. The HRs, Oysters etc have similar D/Ls and allowing for lwl the same performance. Bob alludes to two of his new deck/infill design boats being under contract and mine with the new hard dodger has an audience. Paulo why are experienced sailors ( yes we get on those new fangled aeroplanes from time to time and go to the EU) are still building and buying this 2001 designed hull? Can it be you believe only those on the cutting edge are spending these massive amounts of money ( at least for me) correctly?
Otbound, let me be clear. I know that you have a great boat and a very well built one. There are boats of all types and there is nothing wrong with the dimensions of your boat including weight. Those pictures had nothing to do with your boat but with this Bob statement:

" But it won't be another boooooriiing Euro styled boat that you can't tell one from the other. Does anybody over there have any original thought?"

This is not personal but about design. Your boat is great but could be better if it was upgraded in the keel design that its old. The hull is remarkably well designed for the time it was designed and I think it is not too much outdated. The boat would benefict of a MKII version and that hull justifies it. I think also the overall design could also be improved on that MKII version. I think the boat deserves it.

My own boat, a 2006 model had been replaced by a MKII version: Same hull, same ruder but better and faster torpedo keel (less drag) needing less weight in ballast (lighter boat), two wheel set up, an integrated cockpit table that goes down and disappears under the cockpit floor and a better integrated geenaker pole. In my opinion they took too long to make this MKII, that is obviously better than my boat (MKI). This version should have been made already 2 or 3 years ago. I also find that they should have gone further with the modifications in what regards the cabin itself and the winch positions, that are perfect for crewed racing but could be improved for solo sailing.

To remain at the top of the crop (and there are many types of crops) today any model has a limited time live and needs a reformulation at the middle otherwise sailors will buy other models more evolved. The average time a hull can stand without needed to be substituted is about 10 years, with a reformulation that normally changes everything but the hull at about half time.

The evolution has been so fast on the last years that this times tend to become shorter. Off course I am talking about main market (with many types of boats) where the competition is more severe and stimulates evolution. There will always be some margins to the ones that prefer more conservative boats and those boat don't need to have a so fast evolution: The owners are less demanding in what regards boat performance and design and more focused on workmanship and detail quality.

regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-07-2013 at 01:16 PM.
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