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  #2711  
Old 12-07-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

That super wide stern and lean bows looks like a very poorly balanced hull shape. Is hydraulic steering a way to hide the weather helm on her. Until you sailed her with a tiller, you would never know, except for having to pay full attention full time to avoid a broach.
That is a new interior. Don't expect one which has been lived in for decades, to look like that.
Bob could do a far better job on aesthetics than that piece of pretentiousness.
They should hire him to set it right.

When a sloped stem hits a log , dock, container, ice , etc., it rides up on it, making it a glancing blow , drastically reducing the potential for damage. When a plumb stem hits anything ,it takes the full impact immediately, a shocking blow, maximizing the potential for damage , not a good idea on a cruising boat.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 12-07-2013 at 07:09 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
That super wide stern and lean bows looks like a very poorly balanced hull shape. Is hydraulic steering a way to hide the weather helm on her. Until you sailed her with a tiller, you would never know, except for having to pay full attention full time to avoid a broach...
Brent, performance boats of that size and much bigger don't use hydraulic steering and are normally so well balanced that you steer them with two fingers. It seems you never sailed one

Here you have two boat tests on that boat made by two very experienced boat testers. Listen what they say about the steering and boat balance:





Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-07-2013 at 07:59 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

" Until you sailed her with a tiller you would never know""
I think a good quadrant wheel set up also would give you plenty enough feel to determine helm balance. I think choosing hydraulics is a pragmatic decision for installation and has nothing to do with balance. But I don't see anything in those pics to indicate hydraulic steering and in a boat like that hydraulkic steering would be very unusual.

Thanks for the compliment Brent but that's just not my style of boat. I suppose I could do it if a client asked for it but I prefer not to have to follow a style set down by fashion and trendyness. I like a more classic approach. I need to be excited about what I am doing.

I agree with Paulo that a good cruising boat designer is always studying the race boats to see how he can improve his cruising boat's performance. Performance remains a moving target. The Valiant 40 was born out of the early days of the IOR. My curiosity is enough to keep me interested in racing boat hull shapes. I find generally the fastest boats have beautiful, looking hulls. But today most of the really fast boats are so light that its hard to take away very much that will improve even a medium displ cruising boat. But you can try. You have to try.

For instance:
On kdh's 46'er we ended up looking at two final hulls, one with deadrise and one that was tangent on centerline (flat bottomed). The tangent hull looked to be the quicker hull and gave a little more span to the keel fin. But the reduction is displacement was 1,000 lbs. almost exactly and with the tangent bottom I lost a natural bilge sump. I didn't like the idea of lsing 1,000 lbs of ballast because that's where the weight reduction would have to have come from. And, I didn't like the loss of the bilge sump. I've lived with flat bottomed boats before and they can be a PITA in terms of bilge pick up. I also lost 3" of structural floor height in the keel area. So in the end I stuck with the deadrise hull form that you see in the renderings. But we did look hard at the alternative.
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Last edited by bobperry; 12-07-2013 at 07:21 PM.
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  #2714  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Yeah Paulo. Relax, Chill. Take a Euro break. Eat a sardine. I'll eat a salmon. No,,, not that stinlky farm raised salmon you guys get. I eat my salmon fresh out of the cold waters of the great PNW. I don't even feed my dogs farm raised salon. Yuk!

But I digress.

I am working on the drawings and I will do my best to make the boat look good. Those are not my drawings you posted. Don't let your fingers get ahead of your brain.

But it won't be another boooooriiing Euro styled boat that you can't tell one from the other. Does anybody over there have any original thought?

And performance:
" I can can do 6.8 knots to weather in my Euro boat."
" Golly gosh, I can only do 6.2 knots to weather in my US styled boat."
" Oh wo is me. How can I possibly have any fun when I am giving up .6 knots.?"
" All my friends will laugh at me."
"There goes Bob at 6.2 knots. He's going to die that's for sure. Poor sod. Think what he could have done with another .6 knots." "Damn!"
You still have the ruder axis sloping the wrong way.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Well then, just have Brent build you one. Easy-peasy.
I once met a USanian who used smoked plexi for his wheelhouse windows. Couldn't see a damned thing after sundown. He had to change it to clear.
Bare aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough to burn the soles off your f.eet
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  #2716  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I know that. Amateurs and low budget builders are still using old designs but that designs do not represent the state of the art and they are just building from old plans because they are cheap and cannot afford a brand new plan from a major NA. I have been there, I mean planning to have my one boat building and I was doing just that, trying to improve over an existent affordable design with already some years. Not the top of the crop, I am afraid but the best I could afford.

Mass production shipyards or even smaller shipyards that produce boats have the money to command true contemporary designs of all types from the best NA, designs that represent the state of the art.

I agree with you that the gains from the last generation (10 years ago) from the next generation is not big but still meaningful. But each generation shows improvements over the last and the difference from a contemporary design (of any type) with a 30 year's old design is huge, not only in performance but in interior comfort,available space and the living quality of the space.

We can notice better that evolution on mass produced boats because the competition there is huge and they are forced to make always better boats to keep up with the competition and for that they command work from the best NA, even if that is expensive. They have not a choice except to have the better designed boat they can get.

They normally change the hull of a given model each 7 years or so and in between they make a MKII with the same hull. They change the cabin design and the interior, improving the rigging layout. I don't know of any European brand whose actual model was worst than the previous one, in comfort, performance or easiness of sail. They have to do so or they go out of business.

There is not this kind of pressure on the amateur or semi amateur boat building sector and there the priorities are others like having a boat easy to build, affordable but not too old plans and an overall not bad sailing.

Regards

Paulo
What amore competitive market has given them is a powerful incentive to cut costs ,then make up bogus technical arguments to justify under building things.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
From Steve Dashew's "Cruising Encyclopedia"

"Because of our low D/L ratios,stern waves are quite small in magnitude and quickly move aft of the hull itself once the vessel in question has attained a relatively modest forward velocity.
As a result, we design some of our hulls to have a small amount of immersed transom at rest and at low speeds (typically below S/L ratios of one).
Practical experience has shown that this immersion costs us between 4% of speed at S/L ratios of .4 to .6 andhalf of this between an S/L ratio of .6 and .8.
While this is a huge number in racing terms, it seems nearly meaningless in a cruising context.
If we are talking about 4% or 4 knots , it is less than 4 miles in a 24 hour passage.
And when you look at the advantages (better performance at top speed, more efficient powering, much better prop characteristics when powering into head seas, higher longitudinal stability) this seems like a small price to pay, especially in light of the fact that with an efficient powering set-up, you are going to be motorsailing on passages during light airs anyway - regardless of how fast the boat sails in these conditions."

The book also has a series of pictures showing the stern wave still attached to the transom at S/L ratios under 1 and astern of the transom at S/L ratios of 1.125 while heavily loaded in a true wind speed of 10 knots.

So according to Steve it is designed to immerse the transom at rest and at slower speeds for gains at higher speeds of 25 to 40 miles per day.

His designs have been focused on one thing - offshore cruising with couples in mind. They have done this quite well I think. On his blog there is a chart showing his designs and their mileage. 32 boats, 21 circumnavigations (including the one I pictured) and an average mileage per boat of over 55,000 miles. They seem to do well what they are designed for.
SetSail» Blog Archive » Deerfoot and Sundeer History
Greater directional stability means not having to reef to self steer, which would greatly outweigh any effect from transom drag.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
YONI was one of the last designs I drew by hand. I used pencil and ink on 4 mil mylar. I drew on both sides of the mylar to get different effects and line qualities. It was fun but changes to the design were a PITA compared to acad. There is about 30 sheets of drawings, including schematics for all systems to this design.


Nice keel rudder and skeg design.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

[QUOTE=smackdaddy;1189418]I just seem like an expert. I actually know absolutely nothing.



Man you sure got that right!
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I just seem like an expert. I actually know absolutely nothing.


Man you sure got that right!
At least the smackers admits it! as do others..........not sure about some tho...............
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