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  #2731  
Old 12-08-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
....
I have to go along with Paulo on the helm balance issue. I've done three very light, wide stern boats, the two FlyTiger models and the one off ICON. All are very well balanced. As Paulo says two fingers, lightly on the wheel is all it takes to drive ICON. ...
Take any one of those wide ( L/B's below 3.4), lght (D/L's below 130) flat bottomed boats and heel it over 20 degrees. They roll bow down but the keel gets a nice angle of attack and the water sees a long, sliver of a boat. It's a very easy shape to balance. If these boats all had bad helms they would have corrected it by now. Similar hulls and similar frac rigs with similar keels and similar rudders they have to be able to figure it out and I'm certain they have. You can't win races in a poorly balanced boat. These boats didn't pop up over night as an experiment. They have evolved.
Any very light boat will have a more or less flat bottom but the ones with more flat bottoms are the ones (as you say) with large beam and big transom.

The boat I posted and the one was talking about has not by modern standards a big bottom neither a large beam, I would call that beam a moderated one. A boat like the one you seem to be describing is the Pogo 12.50 that has a beam of 4.50m with all the beam brought back which gives a large transom. The Arcona 410 has a beam of 3.90 and the beam is not brought all back, giving a moderated transom (by average modern standards).

The shape of both hulls in a superior view:





But of course this as to do with what you call a big beam or a big transom, anyone can have his own standards in what regards that.

Brent, the Pogo, the one with the big beam and transom does not have hydraulic steering, neither a wheel. It has a tiller, in fact two.

Regarding the boat sailing performance on the ARC, that is crossing the Atlantic right now, the only Pogo 12.50 is by far the fastest 40ft and has been battling and winning over a bigger racing boat, a very fast one, a TP 52.

This is a racing TP 52:



The Pogo is a performance cruiser not a racer and is making a Transat at the same speed as the fastest 55/60ft cruising boats.

I bet they have no problems with the steering

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-08-2013 at 05:08 PM.
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  #2732  
Old 12-08-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

A tad unfair to focus on Brents 'blanket statement' We all know of his bias but his statement was a quote from a well known and respected figure of west coast history. Frank was sailing the Bering Sea 50 years before ANY of you opinionated modern sailors were born. He lamented the demise of fine lumber and the talent needed to create a wooden vessel when all about were turning to plastic. If epoxy and laminates had evolved 30 years earlier ,he would have gladly sung its praise but in his heart he felt you can't beat a well caulked hull whether it made sense or not..
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Last edited by Capt Len; 12-08-2013 at 07:23 PM.
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  #2733  
Old 12-08-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"Frank was sailing the Bering Sea 50 years before ANY of you opinionated modern sailors were born."

What does that have to do with the discussion?

You can still get a very fine wooden boat built. The materials may be more difficult to find but the craftsmen are there to do it and they are doing it everyday. Have you not been paying attention? Len?
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  #2734  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post




As you know the hull of a boat represents probably only about 1/4 of the cost of a cruiser with a nice interior. His boat was expensive because he used for all other material, from tanks to heater, refrigerator, winches, rigging and mast the same high quality products that are used on mass produced boats but as the big shipyards buy those items directly to the factory and by hundreds of units, the ones he bought to a dealer costed probably 2 times more than what they cost to a big shipyard. of course to have a comfortable interior he had to pay to a carpenter to make it and custom work is not cheap.

Actually he said to me that he had invested about 200 000 euros on his boat (36ft) that eventually he liked to sell to have a bigger boat...but the market price of his boat is between 30 and 35 000 euros so he as no courage to sell and in between periods of lucidity comes to the same old story : My boat is better than any plastic boat...even if he knows that the boat had given him only hardships in what regards costs and maintenance, not to mention sailing performance.

Regards

Paulo
How much you pay for stuff often has no relation to how good it is, in functional terms. Other wise you could double quality by simply doubling the price tag. My interior cost me around $50 for materials . That is certainly not 3/4 the cost of the boat.
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  #2735  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

One old salt lamented "In my grandfathers time it was iron men in wooden ships . In my time it was wooden men in iron ships. Now it's plastic boats and kids."
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  #2736  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"Frank was sailing the Bering Sea 50 years before ANY of you opinionated modern sailors were born."

What does that have to do with the discussion?

You can still get a very fine wooden boat built. The materials may be more difficult to find but the craftsmen are there to do it and they are doing it everyday. Have you not been paying attention? Len?
How long did Pachena last on Estevan point? Not my idea of a fine boat! She was kindling in minutes! Did you design that one Bob? A steel boat would have pounded right over it, intact.
What do your baby pictures, wine discussions, and car discussions have to do with the subject, Bob?
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 12-08-2013 at 08:08 PM.
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  #2737  
Old 12-08-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
One old salt lamented "In my grandfathers time it was iron men in wooden ships . In my time it was wooden men in iron ships. Now it's plastic boats and kids."
Well, since you put it that way, I, for one, would like to think I'm continuing the fine tradition of "iron men"..
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  #2738  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Capt Len View Post
Frank Freddetts designs like Pathfinder and Longfin reflect the west coast troller stern.Form tends to follow function (Sullivan) This is an example of design evolving to fill a need. Some sailors think their needs evolve as designers pull up pretty or faster as the only criteria for excellence. Others may be impressed with a sturdy counter to shuck oysters. Those probably balance affordability and practical comfort with NEW and modern. If you are just a dreamer, dream on. (Frank used to sit on my cap rail and talk about the old days)
Never heard about him and I got curious: That's an old one and had quite an interesting life. I like some of the designs.

"Francis E. Fredette was born in 1893 and first went to sea as cabin boy on a sealing schooner, the Eva Marie, out of Victoria. The six month winter voyage to the Bering Sea and Pribiloff Islands provided young Frank with the experience of a lifetime, and the basis of a life in boats. Pelagic sealing ended in 1911, too soon for Frank, but he went on to work in boatyards, build his own boats, and eventually create design drawings from carved half models."

Sealing Schooners

Frank Fredette

Some of his boats and drawings:













Edited: Ok, native girl out.
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Last edited by PCP; 12-09-2013 at 08:02 AM.
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  #2739  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Native Girl was designed and built by Allen Farrel.Frank Freddette had nothing to do with her.
http://www.woodenboat.org/boats/Boat...?processID=316
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Last edited by jak3b; 12-08-2013 at 10:18 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by jak3b View Post
Native Girl was designed and built by Allen Farrel.Frank Freddette had nothing to do with her.
Native Girl
That was my first thought too, when I saw the picture.
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