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  #2761  
Old 12-09-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
Hi Paulo

Alloy is a much better material for these sorts of boats, and particularly production metal boats.
These were often not built with any though to longevity. Fitouts are often glued together and seamless, they look pretty but have to be destroyed to inspect or repair the hull. Hull repair costs are usually eclipsed by the necessity to remove and rebuild the interior. Neither is much thought given to ingress of water from the inevitable leaking ports and hatches that plague steel boats over time unless they are well designed.

Their are still some issues with production alloy boats. but generally it's limited to more localized areas. Steel boats need good design to be low maintenance, but it is possible. As I said earlier in this thread their are many venerable sailboats of great vintage in common use with steel hulls.

If I had the money and was having a custom sailboat boat built I'd use alloy, it's a gift currently given the energy it takes to produce it.
Design to minimize maintenance on steel boats requires a few decades of maintaining your own.
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  #2762  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
" Until you sailed her with a tiller you would never know""
I think a good quadrant wheel set up also would give you plenty enough feel to determine helm balance. I think choosing hydraulics is a pragmatic decision for installation and has nothing to do with balance. But I don't see anything in those pics to indicate hydraulic steering and in a boat like that hydraulkic steering would be very unusual.

Thanks for the compliment Brent but that's just not my style of boat. I suppose I could do it if a client asked for it but I prefer not to have to follow a style set down by fashion and trendyness. I like a more classic approach. I need to be excited about what I am doing.

I agree with Paulo that a good cruising boat designer is always studying the race boats to see how he can improve his cruising boat's performance. Performance remains a moving target. The Valiant 40 was born out of the early days of the IOR. My curiosity is enough to keep me interested in racing boat hull shapes. I find generally the fastest boats have beautiful, looking hulls. But today most of the really fast boats are so light that its hard to take away very much that will improve even a medium displ cruising boat. But you can try. You have to try.

For instance:
On kdh's 46'er we ended up looking at two final hulls, one with deadrise and one that was tangent on centerline (flat bottomed). The tangent hull looked to be the quicker hull and gave a little more span to the keel fin. But the reduction is displacement was 1,000 lbs. almost exactly and with the tangent bottom I lost a natural bilge sump. I didn't like the idea of lsing 1,000 lbs of ballast because that's where the weight reduction would have to have come from. And, I didn't like the loss of the bilge sump. I've lived with flat bottomed boats before and they can be a PITA in terms of bilge pick up. I also lost 3" of structural floor height in the keel area. So in the end I stuck with the deadrise hull form that you see in the renderings. But we did look hard at the alternative.
Bill Tripp, a guy who had a good eye for shape, got screwed over royally by Columbia, when they conned him into a contract which let them put his name on some horrible looking monstrosities.
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  #2763  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Surprised by Brent 's comment about wood. Maybe he was talking about plank on frame.seem to recall boats up to 100' being done in cold molded. Went up to Covey island and saw some of the gorgeous designs they were putting out in strip plank. Brent may want to investigate modern wood construction. Like Paulo points out real advances in construction techniques have occurred. Don't see much resorcinol now a days.
Paulo you make a very good point. Production yards must built for the masses,must create buzz their boats is the new and improved version or go out of business. Bene is the largest yard in the world. They make a fine product and enjoy the cost effiencies that come with large production runs. They and Hanse, Catalina, or even Hunter have this advantage. The issue of keeping costs down, of designing to keep construction time down, of designs to create a boat that will look good in the shows also apply. But I think it's a wonderful thing Bob is still able to design and sell his designs. That two French seat of their pants sailors can design and actual build the Boreal. In short there remains and hopefully will always remain a non "for the masses" market.
For myself ( and now >55 others) I know I 'd rather be on my boat when off the shelf than any of the "off the shelf" production boats. As I said before " different strokes for different folks". There is no right or wrong on this.
With any wood construction, the load in any one direction is always across the grain of most of its thickness. In triple laminated cold molded, only 1/3rd the load can be along the grain. In some directions, loads are all across the grain..
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Never heard about him and I got curious: That's an old one and had quite an interesting life. I like some of the designs.

"Francis E. Fredette was born in 1893 and first went to sea as cabin boy on a sealing schooner, the Eva Marie, out of Victoria. The six month winter voyage to the Bering Sea and Pribiloff Islands provided young Frank with the experience of a lifetime, and the basis of a life in boats. Pelagic sealing ended in 1911, too soon for Frank, but he went on to work in boatyards, build his own boats, and eventually create design drawings from carved half models."

Sealing Schooners

Frank Fredette

Some of his boats and drawings:













Edited: Ok, native girl out.
I once worked on that last one ( Night Wind ) in my youth. Didn't know Frank designed her.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 12-09-2013 at 05:17 PM.
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  #2765  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
With any wood construction, the load in any one direction is always across the grain of most of its thickness. In triple laminated cold molded, only 1/3rd the load can be along the grain. In some directions, loads are all across the grain..
Brent, put it on my bad English. I read this three times and don't understand what you mean. Can you explain it a bit better?

Regards

Paulo
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  #2766  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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These homes cost about the same as your interior. I assume your interior is just as nice.
If these folks could see the almost new materials we throw out regularly, it would give them wet dreams for weeks.
Unlike in the US, all plywood made in BC uses the same waterproof glue as marine plywood. Even better if it has been used, as it has thus been tested over time. Put a filler, laminate, or veneer over it and its price tag becomes irrelevant.
I found some absolutely beautiful tropical hardwoods in motorcycle crates from Asia. Cost, zero!
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  #2767  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Brent, put it on my bad English. I read this three times and don't understand what you mean. Can you explain it a bit better?

Regards

Paulo
If you put a load along the grain of one veneer, in a triple laminated hull, it is automatically across the grain of the other two laminations. Loads in some directions are across the grain of all three laminations. This is unavoidable in a material which has strength in one direction only.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I once worked on that last one. Didn't know Frank designed her.
It is a relatively recent design....for Franck that was born on the XIX century.

Night Wind I is a Frank Fredette classic ketch built in 1964 in Victoria, British Columbia by Derek Verhey. She is heavily built of 1 1/8" Western red cedar planking of 1" x 2" bent oak frames, galvanized fasteners, and a cedar deck, very much like the fish boats of her time. She has galvanized standing rigging and spruce mast and spars.


Regards

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Time for me to head out cruising for a few days , from inside my wheelhouse , with my wood stove roaring.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent are you aware of any structural failures of any professionally built cold molded boats? Your argument is specious in the extreme. Even back during world war two using resorcinol mine sweepers made of wood were seeing hard service in the north sea during winter storms.
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