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  #2841  
Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
That's a great question. Paulo tells us what's available. Bob shows us what's possible. But there hasn't been a discussion of what we really what. I mean not on the zillion dollar one off sphere but if we were designing a production or small run production boat. Of course would need to divide the discussion into
day sailor
coastal
blue water
high latitude
or like divisions

Still, would be a interesting discussion.
what material
what hull shape
what appendages
what size
what sail plan
what interior features

?anybody want to join in?
Out, I don't know exactly about what you would see as the perfect cruiser (I suspect it has much to do with what the Outbound offers) but I know for sure that it would not be what I would want neither what Brent would want.

When you talk about "WE" I think you are talking about sailors in general and in what regards that, generally, what they want is what is being offered by the market in its different offers.

The ones that have less financial constraints and can have a broader choice regarding what they want are the ones buying new boats or commanding them to NA. Boat manufacturers work a lot to offer what sailors want, they explore almost all types of desires and needs doing an incredibly number of different types of boats suited to very different types of sailing and sailor's tastes. when they fail to do that they don't sell boats and go bankrupt.

The ones that don't find the right type of boat on the market and have the need of having a special type of boat designed expressly to satisfy their needs are very few, as few as the percentage of one off's regarding the number of produced boats.

Then the "WE" does not apply as referring to the boats generally sailors want but regarding the boat some very particular sailor wants and has no statistic relevancy.

Your idea could be fun but only if you found a significant number of sailors that shared precisely the same types of needs and tastes you have, otherwise you would have sailors with very different tastes and needs suggesting completely different types of boats even for doing exactly the same kind of cruising you do.

Brent's post is relevant about that: He talks about what is a perfect boat to him, one that he developed for decades and that now he feels that pretty much has all the requirements he sees on a perfect cruising boat. Very little to improve.

Off course, we have already saw that he is completely unable to understand that what is perfect for him and his sailing program would not be perfect for others. I hope you don't turn out like him and understand that talking about the perfect sailing boat, even if it is about the perfect bluewater cruiser for all, makes no sense. There are just too many variables, too many different tastes, too many ways of designing a good bluewater boat and once again the market shows you that and what are the different options bluewater sailors are choosing. If you want to know the one that is the more common choice in what regards type of boat and brand, you have just to see who is having more success in what regards clients, meaning who is selling more bluewater voyage cruisers.

There are many types and brands working for the sailors that want that kind of boat, sailors with a common objective (voyage) but very different sailing tastes and a different opinions about what should be the perfect bluewater voyage boat. Your opinion is not better or worse than any of the ones that are choosing those boats and voyaging in them, in what regards what is a perfect bluewater cruising boat. Some of the Brands:

Gozzard, Island Packet, Outbound, Passport, Sabre, Halberg Rassy, Najad, Wauquiez, OVNI, Outremer, Pogo, Amel, RM, Xyachts, Oyster, Allures, Nautitech, Nordship, Southerly, Catana, Regina, Cigale, Boreal, Malo, Solaris, Ruster, Contest, Gunfleet, Garcia, Discovery are just some of the brands that have in their line boats designed with extensive cruising and voyaging in mind. There are certainly much more left, some that are just smaller firms, others I cannot remember at the moment but just among these there are hugely different types of boats that are the perfect bluewater boat but certainly not the perfect bluewater boat for the same sailor

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-17-2013 at 11:01 AM.
  #2842  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Paulo- think you missed the point of the question. Their are very intelligent and experienced sailors on this thread. I've enjoyed their input greatly. You view things from what the market offers. I was curious as to what this select group of fellows sailors would want. For instance when I surveyed the offerings I choose Outbound. I'm happy with my choice and think of available offerings came closest to my heart's desires. If a practical schooner or ketch was offered with similar features depending on price and build quality I may have built that. I realize I'm one small insignificant person in this market so view your post as besides the point whereas Brent's spoke directly too the point.
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Last edited by outbound; 12-17-2013 at 11:45 AM.
  #2843  
Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I like the question that was posed by Outbound. It gets to the heart of something that often crosses my mind when I see or worse yet write, the word 'ideal' in the context of boats. Its seems like the term 'ideal' should almost always be accompanied by the questions, 'for whom?' and 'for what use?'. Outbound's query seems to go to the heart of that, and the responses have shown a very bright light on the how the 'for whom?' impacts the 'ideal' in ways that really surprised me after years of reading posts by some of the respondents.

Anyone who has read more than a handful of my my posts would probably admit that I am somewhat predictable on these questions, but here are my responses.
Day sailor: Yes
Coastal: Yes
Blue water: Probably
High latitude: Not a chance in hell

Still, would be a interesting discussion.
What material: Cold molded wood/ composite or higher tech FRP
What hull shape: See drawings
what appendages: See drawings
what size: 16000 lbs
what sail plan: Fractional sloop
what features:
In my opinion a coastal cruiser which is optimized to permit offshore passage making and so should offer the following traits:

Should be seakindly which means an easy motion. Seakindliness coming from long waterline relative to overall length, fine entry, minimal weight in the ends of the boat, moderate beam, Vee'd hull sections forward and elliptical hull sections (not too round and not too hard a bilge) from amidships aft, a low vertical center of gravity, a tall enough but light enough rig to slow roll without increasing roll angle dramatically.

Ideally should be robust and simple. Weight should not be expended on fancy interiors or excess weight in areas that are solely for show. The hull and deck should have small panel areas with reasonably close framing and bulkheads. Details should be simple and solid.

Should have an easily driven hull so that it can get by with smaller sails and a smaller sail inventory making it easier to handle across the wide range of wind and sea conditions that will be encountered. Sail plans and under water foils should be robust and efficient. I don't think that a skeg hung, or keel hung rudder is necessary, and in many ways I think that an outboard rudder makes more sense in terms being able to check and maintain it, and use a simplified self-steering.

I personally would want a fractional rigged sloop rig for its ease in adapting to changeable conditions. I would want a permanently affixed track for the storm trysail. I am of two minds on a removable stay for a storm sail, vs. one that goes up the foil with safety ties incorporated.

Sailing systems need to be robust, easily operated, suitable to short-handing and easy to maintain offshore. Here there needs to be a balance between having the tools to do the job efficiently vs. being overly complex and maintenance prone.

Electronics and the electrical system also need to be simple, and no more than necessary to get by. Here again there need to balance between having enough to do the job efficiently vs. being overly complex and maintenance prone. In my opinion, the boat needs to be operable without an electrical system should the worst happen.

The boat needs to be adequately burdensome to carry all of the consumables and spares that are required for distance voyaging. There needs to be solid, secure and low in the boat food storage lockers. Water tankage needs to be adequately large, with multiple and maintainable tanks. Other types of tankage and storage are less critical.

Ideally there should be complete access to the skind of hull everywhere in the boat.

Deck houses should be low and there should be solid foot and hand holds along the deck. There needs to be good ventilation, which can be secured from leakage when offshore; large portlights and hatches are a no-no.

There needs to be a way to secure ground tackle off the deck and to secure hawse pipes when offshore. There needs to be really great ground tackle and ground tackle handling gear.

There should be narrow passage ways in the cabin, with good foot holds and hand holds, so you are not thrown about. Galleys and heads should be small so you can brace yourself when in them. Refrigeration is less important than good dry storage. I want a dedicated shower.

I would want water tight compartments in the bow and stern, with the propshaft and rudder post within the aft compartment.

I would want about 15,000 to 17,000 Lbs of displacement.

A protected on deck 'watch station' would be important. I would not want a pilot house. A liferaft compartment should be an integral part of the design, as should a solid solution to store a dinghy.

I drafted the images below during the late Wolfenzee's ideal boat discussion as 'My version' if I had Wolf's displacement to work with. In reality, my ideal boat would be a foot or two longer and there would be a dedicated shower/ wet locker aft of the head. But this gives the general idea.







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  #2844  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jeff- It's a beautiful craft. Just like none of the builders Paulo mentioned build a schooner, to my knowledge none have rudders in this size with rudders on gudgeons and pindles with a lifting keel. Looks like a sturdy craft that would be maintainable anywhere
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  #2845  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Jeff- It's a beautiful craft. Just like none of the builders Paulo mentioned build a schooner, to my knowledge none have rudders in this size with rudders on gudgeons and pindles with a lifting keel. Looks like a sturdy craft that would be maintainable anywhere
Thank you very much for the kind comments.

Jeff
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  #2846  
Old 12-17-2013
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Steel Hull, Composite Superstructure. Motorsailers

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainQuiet View Post
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?

Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
I can see this resulted in a very long subject thread. Did you ever find a vessel CaptainQuiet?

Here are two motorsailer designs, one an Alden one a Rhodes, that I believe would make excellent round-the-world vessels.

...sorry, had to post web-links as forum sever wouldn't let me post images (would not let me post links either so I may not be back for awhile)?
Link
LINK

And I would love to explore building them with the newer 'frameless' steel hull methods, and poly honeycomb superstructure. You will find a bit more discussion of this building method in these 2 forum discussions:

Link
Link


I've also played a little bit with a couple of alternate rigs for these two.

Brian Eiland
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  #2847  
Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- think you missed the point of the question. Their are very intelligent and experienced sailors on this thread. I've enjoyed their input greatly. You view things from what the market offers. I was curious as to what this select group of fellows sailors would want. For instance when I surveyed the offerings I choose Outbound. I'm happy with my choice and think of available offerings came closest to my heart's desires. If a practical schooner or ketch was offered with similar features depending on price and build quality I may have built that. I realize I'm one small insignificant person in this market so view your post as besides the point whereas Brent's spoke directly too the point.
Nobody said you were insignificant just that if you want to talk about WE, as meaning generic public, the success of the several brands that make that type of boat on the market is a better indicator, since they talk for dozens and sometimes hundreds of satisfied costumers.

Here you have a brand that have opted for a ketch configuration:




Probably bigger or more expensive than what you wanted but almost all if not all abandoned the Ketch configuration for boats smaller than 50ft, given today improvements in rigging easiness, smaller sails (due to lighter boats) and electric and hydraulic helps.

The Ketch configuration in most cases demands leaving the safety of the cockpit to take care of the sails while those on modern one mast configurations can be done entirely from the cockpit. For blue water cruising the most usual configuration is a cutter rig with a relatively small main and sometimes as much as three head-sails on furlers.

Regards

Paulo
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  #2848  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Oh I don't know Paulo
Was on the new amel. big boat split rig everything done from cockpit.
Live in N.E. in my old harbor ( Plymouth) there were a few schooners down to thirty five feet.
Have also seen Pinky schooners that size and even one in steel. Seen yawls down to 20 feet and the original production PSC was a yawl with a tiller.
I think you've made my point again. Production builders build a boat. If enough are sold they build more like it.
Sailors over time with different boats decide on features they would want if available. It's rare all those features are present in ANY production boat. They end up picking the one that comes closest or if they have the money give Bob a call.
Still think you are looking down at the surface of the water and I wanted to hear from folks looking up from the depths.
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  #2849  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

You could be right Out. But still I went to the effort and expense to send it and I'd like to know if it arrived. "I got it" would be sufficient.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob- How about as a Xmas present to all the SNer's on the 25th you tell us know what you sent. Think for many our curiosity is peeked.
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