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  #2851  
Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jeff, from what I can tell, other than the styling, those drawings indicate a boat much like your Farr.

That big Amel looks a lot like it could have come from Bob's pen.
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  #2852  
Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Don't make me have to come down there Jon!

Out:
OK.
I sent Brent a bar of J.T. Liggett's hand made, non detergent shampoo. It is the only shampoo I have used for the last 7 years. It is made in Vermont by a client of mine who is a retired ad agenecy art director. He has made soap as a hobby since he was a kid. Now his soap products, J.T. Liggetts, are sold all over the world.

The key is that there is no detergent in this soap. This means that when you rinse your hair you can rinse it in less that a minute. This means that it does not strip your hair of its natural oils. This means that your hair will stay cleaner much longer, much longer.

For a live aboard this can mean a signifigant reduction in water needed to shower or shampoo. It smells good and one bar will last a long time. It is not cheap but it is a product that really works.

I figured Brent probably smells bad most of the time and because he spends so much time on the hook he could use a soap that helped him preserve his water. It really was not intended as a joke.

J.T. Liggetts has a web site. The thought of having to use another commercial shampoo terrifies me after using this soap for so long. You'd be doing yourself a big favor by trying it.
smackdaddy and outbound like this.
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  #2853  
Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Jeff, from what I can tell, other than the styling, those drawings indicate a boat much like your Farr.
:
You are right, the boat that I drew (which I will call 'MV') has a lot in common with my Farr. After 12 years owning the Farr, I have tried to keep most of the things that I like about my Farr. But in comparing the two designs there are also significant differences. While they are roughly the same length on deck, the MV has 2 feet more waterline length, weights 3,500 lbs more, has less wetted surface, a finer entry, much more stability, 100 s.f. more sail area measured with its 100% foretriangle resulting in a slightly larger L/D, and it carries a larger assym chute. The Farr has its head forward and MV's is aft. MV has a nicer galley, and a more comfortable settee. MV has a large sail locker aft and carries nearly 3 times as much fuel and around the same amount of water. The MV has a place for one more battery, a hot water heater and a bigger holding tank, and the next size engine. Also unlike the Farr, MV has a lifting keel with a bulb, more draft when down, and an outboard rudder. MV would be cold-molded with a kevlar laminate sheathing.

In reality, I would probably like a boat 2-3 feet longer than either, somewhere around 40-41 feet, which had a slightly larger galley, a better nav station than on MV (Synergy actually has a better nav station than MV) and a dedicated shower.

But within my budget, and for my needs, 'Synergy' is about as good as I could find.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 12-17-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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  #2854  
Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brian- went to your web page. Fascinating concept and speaks to why the new Chris White and the old staysail schooners were so effective. ?Have you had much success in propagating this concept? Would think it would be equally effective on a monohull.
Bob- will get some. thanks for the heads up.
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Last edited by outbound; 12-17-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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  #2855  
Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Jeff, from what I can tell, other than the styling, those drawings indicate a boat much like your Farr.

...
I don't think so. Have a look at the Farr 38 hull:



Jeff's hull



and Salona 38 hull:



Finnflyer 34



The Farr 38 was a very advanced design for his time but the hull is dated now. You can see that Jeff's hull is a modern one, from the same family as Salona, Finnflyer or Solaris type of hulls, even if slightly narrow than the Salona or Solaris, considering the difference in length. It has a bit more ballast and in what regards that case it is closer to the J122, as well as in beam. I like the hull and also the increased ballast ratio.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-17-2013 at 07:48 PM.
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  #2856  
Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I know I am still new to sailnet and sailing That is why some of my thoughts my seem like they come from Mars. It is nice when I get someone to explain. I also love this Sailnet Community because It presents real sailors with up to date conversation and knowledge. I reed a few sailing mags and always have a book going but sailnet has multiple views at all times.
I like the idea of a single mast. K.I.S.S I think 32- 36 foot is about the biggest I could ever feel In control. If you get a rig much bigger would you start to need more high tech machinery. Winches that are electric. The Anchor on a boat bigger than this could not be man handled ? I see they single hand 60 foot of boat solo around the world These men and women very exceptional rare talented individuals ? Those boats are top of the line.
I am still on the idea a boat should not sink. In some ways it took a lot for me to understand how a wood boat sinks. I thought that a wood boat just broke up but now I know they go to the bottom like they are made of steel. The HMS Bounty underlines this.
Has any boat used the cockpit to nest the dingy ? I am not a fan of a dingy on davits. A big inflatable rib or a hard dingy on top the deck is not sleek. The wind pulls on them. They look like 5 gallon water jugs tied to the life lines Safety at sea could come up if the come lose. If it somehow was nested over the cabin roof and looked like part of the boat. I think I did see one large cruiser with a dingy garage. It might have been a Hans ?
I would also like the boom to be able to bring heavy items on to the boat. Maybe a way to use the spinnaker pole with a weight as a counter balance. Could The spinnaker pole or the boom be a mast for the dingy ?
Next thought I have seen some huge air filled fender/ bumpers so the whole side of a boat is keep away from the dock. I have also seen water ballast bags that look like these fenders. How big is the largest R.I.B ? Could these fender ballast bags be around your boat incorporated into the design to look like it belongs . We have life jackets that inflate. Sort of like a scuba BCD for a boat. This could make a boat that will not sink. You cold also tie a lot of 5 gal water jugs to life lines and get the same benefits . The current stuff is not much better looking than the jugs and old tires . Why should a boat with limited space need to consume space with stuff like dock fenders. Build better boats ?
Good day, Lou
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  #2857  
Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Brian- went to your web page. Fascinating concept and speaks to why the new Chris White and the old staysail schooners were so effective. ?Have you had much success in propagating this concept? Would think it would be equally effective on a monohull.
Are you addressing me, ....and my unusual rig? If so I have made quite of an attempt to promote the idea over the years with only a few similar rigs being built. When I get enough postings I'll be able to add some links and photos

I'm new to this forum and somehow did not get any notification that additional postings had been made to this subject thread??
(ah ha, I just found the 'notification' button)

Brian
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  #2858  
Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brian- Wish you the best of luck. Seems quite innovative
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  #2859  
Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Are you addressing me, ....
Welcome Brian. And here's what I think you meant to say...

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  #2860  
Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Lou- I think you've asked the important and thoughtful questions and will try to give answer to the best of my limited ability.
unsinkable- if you talk with yards/insurance people most common reason place of sinking are at moorings and slips. Most common reasons are hull piercings ( through hulls, packing glands etc).If properly maintained usually avoidable. Failed anti siphon valves are also common cause and lastly lightening strikes. Even partial sinkings usually result in destruction of interior and electronics/mechanical systems so question of restoration/salvage is often questionable economically. Offshore cause of sinking often unknown unless souls aboard are saved. It seems common causes are vessel being overwhelmed ( pitchpoled or rolled) or suffering structural failure. So called "blue water" boats are usually much more expensive then coastal vessels the same size. Reason being primarily the labor involved in creating a vessel that will maintain structural integrity. Labor involved in securing all of both sides structural bulkheads and like practices are an example. That's why you see boats being constructed in both Chinas, Poland, the old Yugoslavia etc. In short places where skilled labor is cheaper. Earlier in this thread ETAP was mentioned. It was a Belgian company that made unsinkable sail boats using closed cell foam much like Boston Whaler. They went bankrupt. Long term cruisers find they need and want every inch they can find to squirrel away supplies and things. For instance the wife bought 3 porcelain Chinese gentlemen she found in a second hand shop in Annapolis. Wrap in bubble wrap and wedged in the space between the batteries and bulkhead they survived the trip home. Etaps because of the nature of construction can't have those "wasted spaces" where we snuggle stuff in to. In the past there was offered inflatable bags that attached to settees and bulkheads. They had the typical salt pills or halyards to allow C02 inflation. Once again troubles with concerns about expense, injury from inadvertent inflation and aesthetics cause them to never catch on. In short due to liveability, access to the inside of the hull, expense and need for interior volume. ETAP ( which made a great boat didn't sell. I looked at their 46 before building my current boat and thought highly of them but went with a well constructed vessel with forward watertight bulkhead.
Dinghies- I and many others simple use the spinnaker halyard to lift the inflatable on to the fore neck. Just need a hand to push it out so it doesn't hang up on the lifelines. No need to make it more complicated. The big reason Walker Bay inflatables are popular are they are offered with a transom that folds forward when deflated. The whole thing is flipped upside down while on the spin halyard. Then deflated and secured to grab rails of fore deck. Takes less than 10m and I can do it by myself in a pinch. Having dinghy on davits when coastal is a blessing. You sail faster and it takes just a few minute to deploy.
Fenders are made in a long rectangular shape that inflate/deflate easily. I forget the brand but you can google it. Never know when a fender may come in handy so use the Taylormade for now.
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