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  #2861  
Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
... That's why you see boats being constructed in both Chinas, Poland, the old Yugoslavia etc. In short places where skilled labor is cheaper. Earlier in this thread ETAP was mentioned. It was a Belgian company that made unsinkable sail boats using closed cell foam much like Boston Whaler. They went bankrupt. Long term cruisers find they need and want every inch they can find to squirrel away supplies and things. ...
I don't think that being unthinkable had to do with Etap bankruptcy. The space lost was not so much and that was a very interesting feature appreciated by sailors. They went bankrupt because their boats were considerable more expensive than the French and German ones, with very similar characteristics and the bonus of being unsinkable was not enough to justify that price difference. There are more unsinkable boats on the market, the Pogo for instance, among others (many cats).

But I agree with you that even if convenient it would not be a deal breaker for me but having waterproof bulkheads on the forward bow section and on the aft rudder section, seems very important to me. Rudder failure (or breakage on a collision) and the ingress of water by the rudder hole has been the cause of several lost boats.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-18-2013 at 01:58 PM.
  #2862  
Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
I know I am still new to sailnet and sailing That is why some of my thoughts my seem like they come from Mars. It is nice when I get someone to explain. I also love this Sailnet Community because It presents real sailors with up to date conversation and knowledge. I reed a few sailing mags and always have a book going but sailnet has multiple views at all times.
I like the idea of a single mast. K.I.S.S I think 32- 36 foot is about the biggest I could ever feel In control. If you get a rig much bigger would you start to need more high tech machinery. Winches that are electric. The Anchor on a boat bigger than this could not be man handled ? I see they single hand 60 foot of boat solo around the world These men and women very exceptional rare talented individuals ? Those boats are top of the line.
I am still on the idea a boat should not sink. In some ways it took a lot for me to understand how a wood boat sinks. I thought that a wood boat just broke up but now I know they go to the bottom like they are made of steel. The HMS Bounty underlines this.
Has any boat used the cockpit to nest the dingy ? I am not a fan of a dingy on davits. A big inflatable rib or a hard dingy on top the deck is not sleek. The wind pulls on them. They look like 5 gallon water jugs tied to the life lines Safety at sea could come up if the come lose. If it somehow was nested over the cabin roof and looked like part of the boat. I think I did see one large cruiser with a dingy garage. It might have been a Hans ?
I would also like the boom to be able to bring heavy items on to the boat. Maybe a way to use the spinnaker pole with a weight as a counter balance. Could The spinnaker pole or the boom be a mast for the dingy ?
Next thought I have seen some huge air filled fender/ bumpers so the whole side of a boat is keep away from the dock. I have also seen water ballast bags that look like these fenders. How big is the largest R.I.B ? Could these fender ballast bags be around your boat incorporated into the design to look like it belongs . We have life jackets that inflate. Sort of like a scuba BCD for a boat. This could make a boat that will not sink. You cold also tie a lot of 5 gal water jugs to life lines and get the same benefits . The current stuff is not much better looking than the jugs and old tires . Why should a boat with limited space need to consume space with stuff like dock fenders. Build better boats ?
Good day, Lou
Lou,

You are asking some interesting questions. I have been thinking of creating a thread which is intended to provide a place to discuss, "What about this idea?"'s I hope that you don't mind I would like to copy your post and post it as a start for that thread rather than add yet another topic to this thread.

Jeff
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  #2863  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jeff - That's a great idea. Seems to be a consensus that there are a host of interesting ideas from various folks. Be nice to have a thread where they are collected. Be even most pleasant if the major producers read that thread and it served as nidus for incorporation into new designs.
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  #2864  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Great idea, kind of "the boat bozo's idea gam".
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  #2865  
Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I can understand economics drive the market. Cost and the ability to sell the boat makes or breaks it.
The skipper and the crew are the most decisive factor in safety and success.
So far I have by the numbers followed the crowd and picked what others have considered good boats.
I have to offer my thanks and gratitude to the folks that are posting. I am not in large crowd of sailors where I live. The sailors are just a few souls. It will be a bitter sweet day when my long term plans leave us separated by so much land.. The internet is making it possible to reach out and gain knowledge and benefits that would take years to accumulate by other means.
Good day, Lou
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  #2866  
Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
...
So far I have by the numbers followed the crowd and picked what others have considered good boats.
... Lou
Lou, there are certainly bad boats even if it is harder to find them among the more recent ones, but there is not certainly one good boat for all.

I mean as you can see there are many different types of boasts, even in what regards cruising, and on each type there is the perfect boat for a given cruiser, except that we are talking about different types and styles of cruising and therefore very different boats.

The important thing is to understand the differences between the several types of boats, first in theory and then for real, sailing different types of boats. It is also fundamental to know what type of cruising you are interesting in making for being able to chose the more appropriated type of boat.

Certainly this forum can give you a lot of information and help but with that information you have to try yourself different types of boats to see what is really the one you are interested in, for the type of cruising you want to do and your lifestyle.

Regards

Paulo
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  #2867  
Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Lou,

I would agree with Paulo, There is really not a best boat for anyone, unless you have someone like BP design it, and custom build it! Even then! your design will be pigeon holed into how you intend to use it. Look back a page or two, and see what Outbound, Sloop, Jeff and myself want in boats. NONE of them are the same. We each have a how we will use a boat, so want it to work for that reason. I'm mostly a daysailor/racer, with an occasional weekend, and maybe one week a year on the boat. I do not need nor want, 100+ gals of fuel and water on the boat. Frankly a 12 hr plus 10-20% reserve is plenty of fuel for how I use the boat. Even the current one with a 6-7 hr literally 7 gal tank is very usable for how I use the boat. when I need to motor 8-10 hrs, I take a 5 gal jerry can and fill half way to the destination. 20 gals of water lasts me the whole season! A single size 24 house battery has never been drained sailing, or on the hook etc!

So hence why builders have different styles types of boats etc. You need to figure out the how you may or will use the boat, get storage etc to meet those goals, and you then have a boat that is probably 90% perfect............

Marty
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  #2868  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

It's the flaws that make them perfectly yours
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  #2869  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
..........
Only one of my boats, who's builders ignored my plans, has ever been holed behind the keels, and that at far above hull speed on a solid rock, yet you claim, from Australia, without having ever seen any of my boats, to know of many more that I am not aware of ,and you claim I am being deceptive?
You claim that logitudinals, arcs, under longitudinal compression, are not under compression when faced with inward pressure?
Man what a crock.

Someone without the ability to comprehend such simple basics, is definitely not a reliable source of any info on the structural factors in a metal hull.
How many times has this been explained to you by how many people?
if you have a compression member it's either column or an arch, you presumed your shallow curve was an arch and have written so numerous times, trouble is you don't understand buckling. It's not an arch.

Your structural arguments are 'religious' arguments that have nothing to do with reality. You have a very ignorant and even deluded view of structures which is dangerous for a boat designer.

You still don't understand span either but you do understand spin

All you baloney about holed boats..... The whole idea is that the whole grillage yields under severe impact with no hard spots. You just don't understand how strong that makes the boat, how much energy a metal boat can take in severe impact and remain integrally intact and floating.

Look at a pic of 'Gringo' again after being T boned by a bulbous bow. Gringo is extensively transverse framed. See how the transverses kept the hull in shape and stopped a large global collapse. And no holes Brent, despite all that transverse framing.

Had Gringo been a frameless BS design it's likely that the damage would have been catastrophic. No different to a light foam GRP in such a collision.
  #2870  
Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Ok Out, I will play your game:

Ten years ago I was still thinking that the right boat for me was one with about the same program that you see as the ideal for yourself, meaning a passagemaker for all kinds of weather, including cold climates and adapted to make a lot of sailing in the night and rain, during long passages.

Things had changed and I understood that if I wanted to keep my wife I would not be able to do that kind of sailing so the ideal boat had changed too, not to mention that I had more money then... but I still have the drawings that I never finished.

Anyway, after a very classical offshore boat (that I had already posted on this thread) I turned to a much faster and more polyvalent boat that had only in common with the last one to be an aluminium one. The drawings are 10 years and today the hull design would be different and maybe the overall design too but the principles would be about the same:

1- Aluminium very fast boat
2-A boat with two saloons, one smaller including a pilot house, where I and my wife could enjoy the scenery in cold days, another one bigger inside, down below adjacent to the galley also with a port view.
3- On the pilot house the settee would turn in a a good sea berth. Also there a good recliner seat with a big chart table with all instruments annexed and a joystick to be able to steer the boat from inside with a good all around view.
3- A big galley, and a good sea one.
4- Two good cabins and a big head with separated shower
5- a big interior storage space next to the galley.
6- Garage for the dinghy, dedicated space for the liferaft, 4 cockpit lockers, one big one, another smaller and to vertical to Stowe the fenders.
7- At least 600L of water and 400L of fuel
8- Variable draft with a lifting keel
9- Winches at easy reach to the wheel man and rigging adapted to solo sailing.
10-Retractable bowsprit.

Dimensions:

Hull lenght - 13.99m
Beam - 4.31m
Draft-1.20m/2.80m
Ballast - 4200kg
Displacement- 11 000 kg
SA upwind with jib - 115m2
SA downwind - 254m2

Some drawings:









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