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  #2871  
Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Someday I might build a dingy out of fiberglass or aluminum. A blue water surf board, a 30knt dingy. That is as far as I anticipate building a boat. I have looked at all the Glen L boats and they are nice but do not make me feel the crave. I have not found a production dingy that Is what I want.
You see I need two boats all the time. one small one bigger. I have a member in my club that kind of laughed because he was thinking I just need one boat. He however is also boat-aholic Found out he has Three in his yard and one in a slip in FL.
I think my final boat will be between 32-36 feet I already own ten foot smaller and this is my comfort zone right now. It is also to me as large as Cave run Lake can handle 22-24 feet. Some folks have larger boats on Cave Run Lake. It just seems to much for that lake, The main pool is just a mile and a half across. I hope to visit some other lakes by trailering my Catalina -22. Next I may charter, rent bigger ? Then move to an area that I can sail The boat that grow into.
Good day , Lou
  #2872  
Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Lou,

The Glen-l boats have some very good well written and pictured directions and plans. I may still have the plans to the 8-ball I built in about 6th/7th grade. Great little boat to sail!

Later I built the G-L 12' sailing sloop. Fun fast boat. Step dad built the 21-cb sail boat. ALso a fun boat for on lk washington.

THey do take some time to do. Not sure what kind of dinghy style you want. In the salish sea there are a few that look pretty nice....
Bigger than 20', well that is another ball game!

Marty
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  #2873  
Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Wow you have talent to build that young ! Some of my glue together plastic models needed help. Extra parts leftovers failure to follow the step by step plans is not the way to go.
Glen L has some nice looking boats. It is more telling that I do not know what I want yet. They look like they support the builder. I might need to see and feel the boat. I do not have the vision to look at a blue print a make a call so right now they do not have (what I want ). I have never seen a steel dingy or an Aluminum I could do steel Aluminum wood or fiberglass. The metal is where I would do the best craftsmanship. It is just my humble opinion the most labor intensive to work in metal.
I think a Laser is close to what I want in a dingy. I do not like the sail sock idea. I want to have a main Halyard and maybe even a reef. I like my FJ but it swamps and becomes scuttled in small 2 foot waves if I capsize and do not get back up fast, I want to surf in a dingy. I want to sit and not be on a trapeze. I like how a laser is low to the water If you capsize you are not up high like in a beach cat. I like that a Laser will still go in light air. My FJ will also. I think I might need to stop because I am so far off topic.
Good day. Lou
  #2874  
Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
I think I might need to stop because I am so far off topic.
Good day. Lou
Off Topic??? In this thread??? How dare you, Lou!!
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  #2875  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

[quote=Brent Swain;1236474]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
How many times has this been explained to you by how many people?
if you have a compression member it's either column or an arch, you presumed your shallow curve was an arch and have written so numerous times, trouble is you don't understand buckling. It's not an arch.

Your structural arguments are 'religious' arguments that have nothing to do with reality. You have a very ignorant and even deluded view of structures which is dangerous for a boat designer.

You still don't understand span either but you do understand spin

All you baloney about holed boats..... The whole idea is that the whole grillage yields under severe impact with no hard spots. You just don't understand how strong that makes the boat, how much energy a metal boat can take in severe impact and remain integrally intact and floating.

Look at a pic of 'Gringo' again after being T boned by a bulbous bow. Gringo is extensively transverse framed. See how the transverses kept the hull in shape and stopped a large global collapse. And no holes Brent, despite all that transverse framing.

The impact on Gringo was a vertical crease, , parallel to any transverse frames. Whether it landed on a transverse frame or parallel to one, the transverse frame had nothing to do with supporting the plate there. It was the deck edge, a fully welded longitudinal bulkhead equivalent , and the bottom plate, which resisted the impact. Transverse frames there either were pushed in or, if it hit next to the frame , parallel to it , did nothing , except give the plate something to stretch against, maximizing the damage, and maximizing the cost and complexity of repairing it . A blunt bulbous bow would have done absolutely no more damage to a frameless hull, and possibly would have done less damage. Like Gringo, the decks and bottom plate would have been buckled , no more than Gringo, but the topsides plate would have sprung back to some extent, and wouldn't have to be replaced, just straightened .
Apologies for the misplacement of the text. Didn't feel like retyping it.
I heard a neurologist describing "either or" thinking as a mental deficiency . I also saw it described as a consequence of sports injuries, in a science magazine. In balancing "either or ", they have a toggle switch instead of a rheostat equivalent between the two, and are thus incapable of comprehending the concept of there being varying shades of gray, on any issue.
No Mike, it doesn't go instantly, from an arc to a non arc. Any curve adds a huge amount of stiffness, increasing gradually as the curve increases. It doesn't remain as floppy as a flat plate, right up to a sudden point , until a certain degree of curve is reached, then go instantly from the floppiness of a flat plate to the rigidity of an arc, and stay the same strength from that point on .
No Mike , it doesn't work that way.
No Mike, a sharp impact on one point is not resisted by the whole grillage. A sharp point impact at one point is not resisted by frames several feet away. Making a higher percentage of your total weight in frames, forcing you to go for thinner plate, reduces the plates resistance to a sharp point impact, and increases the likelihood of being holed, especially if the impact is right next to a rigid frame.
The blunt impact on Gringo is one situation, but not all, and nothing at all like a sharp impact on one point, a completely different ball of wax.

If span is not the distance between supports, then how would you define span?

On BD.net . Mike (and Troy, and the rest of the hecklers sqaud) supported the idea that those many reknown designers Bob mentioned, including Bob Perry himself , who don't have paper qualifications, should be barred from designing boats, enforced by an army of government bureaucrats, with reams of rules and regulations, drafted by the similarly myopic. .
To get some qualifications on paper doesn't require the ability to think, in fact that may disqualify some. It only requires the ability to memorize the answers to questions on the test. It punishes and denounces those who ask questions, based on thinking outside the box. Leaving yacht design to such people would threaten to bring progress to a grinding halt, and give guys like Mike and Kasten a monopoly, which is why they advocate such nonsense. (an admission they cant survive a level playing field, or a meritocracy)
Would yacht design be better off if the designers Bob mentioned were replaced by guys like Mike and Kasten, who have probably never come up with a single, useful innovation in their lives, while heckling anyone who does?
I think not!

When a doctor in the 1840s suggested that maybe doctors should wash their hands after handling corpses, before aiding delivery of babies, he was attacked, sarcastically ridiculed, heckled and condemned for the rest of his life . At that time babies born in hospitals had over 20 times the death rate of those born out in the country side. Had Mike and Smack been living in that time , they would have been among the hecklers .
Early scientists were condemned and threatened with death when they suggested that the earth was not the centre of the universe. Columbus was sarcastically heckled and ridiculed when he suggested the earth was round and not flat. Mike and Smack would have been among the sarcastic hecklers, had they been alive in that time.
The list goes on ( Guttenburg we hate your type, Ben Franklin go fly a kite, etc.)
Had humanity listened to such luddite morons, we would still be in the stone age. All human progress in any field required ignoring such throwbacks. Thank god many did!
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 12-20-2013 at 05:37 PM.
  #2876  
Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Don't make me have to come down there Jon!

Out:
OK.
I sent Brent a bar of J.T. Liggett's hand made, non detergent shampoo. It is the only shampoo I have used for the last 7 years. It is made in Vermont by a client of mine who is a retired ad agenecy art director. He has made soap as a hobby since he was a kid. Now his soap products, J.T. Liggetts, are sold all over the world.

The key is that there is no detergent in this soap. This means that when you rinse your hair you can rinse it in less that a minute. This means that it does not strip your hair of its natural oils. This means that your hair will stay cleaner much longer, much longer.

For a live aboard this can mean a signifigant reduction in water needed to shower or shampoo. It smells good and one bar will last a long time. It is not cheap but it is a product that really works.

I figured Brent probably smells bad most of the time and because he spends so much time on the hook he could use a soap that helped him preserve his water. It really was not intended as a joke.

J.T. Liggetts has a web site. The thought of having to use another commercial shampoo terrifies me after using this soap for so long. You'd be doing yourself a big favor by trying it.
They have recently been finding some major health problems with anti bacterial soaps with no net benefit in reducing bacteria.
Thanks Bob.
I told a lady here on Quadra, who makes soaps in may shapes, that if she made them in the shape of some politicians, people would buy more, just to be able to rub such faces in unmentionable places.
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  #2877  
Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't think so. Have a look at the Farr 38 hull:



Jeff's hull



and Salona 38 hull:



Finnflyer 34



The Farr 38 was a very advanced design for his time but the hull is dated now. You can see that Jeff's hull is a modern one, from the same family as Salona, Finnflyer or Solaris type of hulls, even if slightly narrow than the Salona or Solaris, considering the difference in length. It has a bit more ballast and in what regards that case it is closer to the J122, as well as in beam. I like the hull and also the increased ballast ratio.

Regards

Paulo
Nice deck layout. A head facing fore and aft is much easier to use when well heeled. Athwartships , you are either on your back or sliding forward off it.
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  #2878  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I like the question that was posed by Outbound. It gets to the heart of something that often crosses my mind when I see or worse yet write, the word 'ideal' in the context of boats. Its seems like the term 'ideal' should almost always be accompanied by the questions, 'for whom?' and 'for what use?'. Outbound's query seems to go to the heart of that, and the responses have shown a very bright light on the how the 'for whom?' impacts the 'ideal' in ways that really surprised me after years of reading posts by some of the respondents.

Anyone who has read more than a handful of my my posts would probably admit that I am somewhat predictable on these questions, but here are my responses.
Day sailor: Yes
Coastal: Yes
Blue water: Probably
High latitude: Not a chance in hell

Still, would be a interesting discussion.
What material: Cold molded wood/ composite or higher tech FRP
What hull shape: See drawings
what appendages: See drawings
what size: 16000 lbs
what sail plan: Fractional sloop
what features:
In my opinion a coastal cruiser which is optimized to permit offshore passage making and so should offer the following traits:

Should be seakindly which means an easy motion. Seakindliness coming from long waterline relative to overall length, fine entry, minimal weight in the ends of the boat, moderate beam, Vee'd hull sections forward and elliptical hull sections (not too round and not too hard a bilge) from amidships aft, a low vertical center of gravity, a tall enough but light enough rig to slow roll without increasing roll angle dramatically.

Ideally should be robust and simple. Weight should not be expended on fancy interiors or excess weight in areas that are solely for show. The hull and deck should have small panel areas with reasonably close framing and bulkheads. Details should be simple and solid.

Should have an easily driven hull so that it can get by with smaller sails and a smaller sail inventory making it easier to handle across the wide range of wind and sea conditions that will be encountered. Sail plans and under water foils should be robust and efficient. I don't think that a skeg hung, or keel hung rudder is necessary, and in many ways I think that an outboard rudder makes more sense in terms being able to check and maintain it, and use a simplified self-steering.

I personally would want a fractional rigged sloop rig for its ease in adapting to changeable conditions. I would want a permanently affixed track for the storm trysail. I am of two minds on a removable stay for a storm sail, vs. one that goes up the foil with safety ties incorporated.

Sailing systems need to be robust, easily operated, suitable to short-handing and easy to maintain offshore. Here there needs to be a balance between having the tools to do the job efficiently vs. being overly complex and maintenance prone.

Electronics and the electrical system also need to be simple, and no more than necessary to get by. Here again there need to balance between having enough to do the job efficiently vs. being overly complex and maintenance prone. In my opinion, the boat needs to be operable without an electrical system should the worst happen.

The boat needs to be adequately burdensome to carry all of the consumables and spares that are required for distance voyaging. There needs to be solid, secure and low in the boat food storage lockers. Water tankage needs to be adequately large, with multiple and maintainable tanks. Other types of tankage and storage are less critical.

Ideally there should be complete access to the skind of hull everywhere in the boat.

Deck houses should be low and there should be solid foot and hand holds along the deck. There needs to be good ventilation, which can be secured from leakage when offshore; large portlights and hatches are a no-no.

There needs to be a way to secure ground tackle off the deck and to secure hawse pipes when offshore. There needs to be really great ground tackle and ground tackle handling gear.

There should be narrow passage ways in the cabin, with good foot holds and hand holds, so you are not thrown about. Galleys and heads should be small so you can brace yourself when in them. Refrigeration is less important than good dry storage. I want a dedicated shower.

I would want water tight compartments in the bow and stern, with the propshaft and rudder post within the aft compartment.

I would want about 15,000 to 17,000 Lbs of displacement.

A protected on deck 'watch station' would be important. I would not want a pilot house. A liferaft compartment should be an integral part of the design, as should a solid solution to store a dinghy.

I drafted the images below during the late Wolfenzee's ideal boat discussion as 'My version' if I had Wolf's displacement to work with. In reality, my ideal boat would be a foot or two longer and there would be a dedicated shower/ wet locker aft of the head. But this gives the general idea.







A fractional rig makes no sense for a cruiser. Overly asymmetrical looks like poor directional stability. A couple of dagger boards aft, at an outward angle may help.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 12-20-2013 at 06:02 PM.
  #2879  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"after 29 years of mostly full time cruising in her, there is very little I would do differently."

Ahhh, the active, creative mind at work.

More like in irons.

Brent: did you ever get your package?
Yes, I'm told it is there. Sailing down that way in a couple of days.
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  #2880  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
It was a very cold, cold. I had been warned about the Mosquitos as well but did alright in that regard.
I once built a 36 in Winnipeg. Sept was not bad there.
She cruises lake Winnipeg. Hauled out for winter. Far enough offshore may solve the mosquitoes problem; for a while.
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