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  #2891  
Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Nelson of Nelson/Marek has a degree.
Gary Mull had a degree.
Alan Andrews has a degree, I think.

Bob Perry G.O.M.

Brent:
Got the same memo. As a person in the business I was told I had to identify myself as such.
Apparently G.O.M just wasn't enough.

"My first boat had a toe rail which looked exactly like that one. What a huge pain in the ass, and waste of time. Never did that again. "'
Brent, you still don't get it. Read slowly this time:
This is not a boat for you.
This is a boat for my client.
My client has lots of money he does not do his own maintenence. His current Hinckley is immaculate.
My client could care a less what you like. He lives in a very different world than the one you live in.
My client likes beautiful yachts.
You do not do beautiful yachts. You build aesthetically challenged steel boats for people who don't care about beautiful yachts.
Bob, Brent himself explained why he can't comprehend anything but his own, sad world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I heard a neurologist describing "either or" thinking as a mental deficiency . I also saw it described as a consequence of sports injuries, in a science magazine. In balancing "either or ", they have a toggle switch instead of a rheostat equivalent between the two, and are thus incapable of comprehending the concept of there being varying shades of gray, on any issue.
This is obviously him telling us about the diagnosis he received from his neurologist. We really need to take it easier on him - be more compassionate. It has to be extremely difficult going through life with a toggle switch "mental deficiency".

Hang in there Brent. We're with you brother.

BTW - which NHL team were you on?
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-20-2013 at 11:13 PM.
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  #2892  
Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Bob, Brent himself explained why he can't comprehend anything but his own, sad world.



This is obviously him telling us about the diagnosis he received from his neurologist. We really need to take it easier on him. It has to be extremely difficult going through life with a toggle switch "mental deficiency".

Hang in there Brent. We're with you brother.

BTW - which NHL team were you on?
I found my toggle switch.It does not have an 'off' setting, just 'on' and 'more on'.
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  #2893  
Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by jak3b View Post
I found my toggle switch.It does not have an 'off' setting, just 'on' and 'more on'.
Heh-heh.

"Everybody knows, you never go full more on."

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  #2894  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Oh, is that what you guys call it, your "toggle switch"?

Cute.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

If this thread is any indication it's easier to just push your buttons.
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Last edited by Capt Len; 12-21-2013 at 02:11 PM.
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  #2896  
Old 12-21-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Damn- I'm a board certified boston trained neurologist and I just found out from Brent I wasted the last 35 years of my life. Didnt know it was so simple. Gee just a bunch of switches. Who would have guessed it?
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Old 12-21-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Damn- I'm a board certified boston trained neurologist and I just found out from Brent I wasted the last 35 years of my life. Didnt know it was so simple. Gee just a bunch of switches. Who would have guessed it?
Sounds like just one binary switch...
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  #2898  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Good thing my wife knows my on/off switch but too bad she also knows just how to push my buttons.

Getting back to the O.P. Down at the yard there's a ~60' steel bulbous bow trawler. We've had a lot of wind recently and given the size of the thing and the windage she went bump into something hard. ( don't know the details). The cut water and port side of the bow were struck when she was leaving to go south. There were three significant indents. What surprised me was when talking with yard hands was:
Dented areas could not be hammered out or forced out with hydraulics. Any indent stretches the metal so original shape cannot be restored. Just like with a car skin.
Dented area should be presumed weak and should ideally be cut out.
even if not struck on frames- frames and symmetry of the hull need to be examined closely. Repair may need to involve area much larger than area of apparent damage.
Area to be refinished will also encompass area much larger than apparent damage.
Mounts and welds quite some distance from point of impact also need to be examined and may have failed.

It's true the hull skin remained intact but the repair bill looks like it will be quite significant. Surprising so given the external damage did not seem so bad to my un educated eye.

This boat was fully framed. I can see how after repair she'll be "as good as new". I can't see in a similar circumstance how one could restore a frameless hull to it's original conformation if the dented portion of the hull was in a portion that was bent as part of the origami method?

Brent has made much of the strength and ease of building in steel. I have some limited knowledge of repairs in solid glass, cored glass/synethics, and cold molded wood. I thought metal repair was much, much easier.I thought that was one of the major advantages of metal boats. It was an eye opener to hear of the potential complexities of metal repair. Particularly if one wants to restore to original beauty and hull conformation. I think I gained understanding why with commercial boats it's not uncommon for dents to just be recoated and left alone.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
........ I think I gained understanding why with commercial boats it's not uncommon for dents to just be recoated and left alone.
Look at any harbour tug/workboat/log salver.. they get pretty beatup, but it all gets painted over (every once in a while..) I guess the key to the 'steel' side is that the skin is rarely penetrated or fractured despite amount of deformation or stress - though I'm sure there are limits there too.
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Old 12-22-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
No Mike, it doesn't go instantly, from an arc to a non arc. Any curve adds a huge amount of stiffness, increasing gradually as the curve increases. It doesn't remain as floppy as a flat plate, right up to a sudden point , until a certain degree of curve is reached, then go instantly from the floppiness of a flat plate to the rigidity of an arc, and stay the same strength from that point on .
No Mike , it doesn't work that way.
No Mike, a sharp impact on one point is not resisted by the whole grillage. A sharp point impact at one point is not resisted by frames several feet away.
This is all obfuscation as usual. Learn some basic beam theory for starters. Materials resist loads in compression tension or shear. If you want to rely on compression you need a column or an arch, and then the failure mode is not the material strength but the resistance to buckling. Metals are as strong in compression as in tension but if the strain increases at a rate faster than the stress your structure fails. That collapse is from a completely different scenario to those which you aware of. Of real concern is that no matter how many people try to educate you, you choose to ignore basic engineering knowledge.

As for holes and punch shear, grillage will yield along with plate without damage providing the shear strength of the collision area exceeds the structural yield strength of the structure. That's very basic naval architecture and a design requirement for some vessels.

You harp on about holes but you have never given examples except a ship and one of your design that sheared it’s plate rotating it’s keels into the hull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
If span is not the distance between supports, then how would you define span?
Where are going with this ? I said the span of the small section unsupported longitudinals is too great for them to be effective structurally(other than as local plate stiffeners). What don’t you get about that statement ?

You believe(d) and tell others that they have magical properties unknown to engineering and that they are arches, but I showed with a detailed analysis that if you make a structure that wants to straighten out then it will deform in buckling more easily. What can't you grasp about this? I posted a lot of diagrams for you before and you still fail to grasp it! Although I suspect you do by now but you are too compromised by your past marketing hype and publications.

Do you get it that your boat designs are weaker not stronger boats? The small boats are apparently strong enough, they dent a bit too easily in some areas, but importantly thay will not scale to 60 feet without being abysmally weak unless they have sufficient transverse framing added. That’s my message, all this bluster and BS from you is simply trying to mask the simple fact and that you don’t know what you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
On BD.net . Mike (and Troy, and the rest of the hecklers sqaud) supported the idea that those many reknown designers Bob mentioned, including Bob Perry himself , who don't have paper qualifications, should be barred from designing boats,
For a start lets just make it clear that you just made that up about Bob Perry. Why invent so many outrageous lies? Then when you are shown to be lying you have no remorse or sense of guilt, that’s pretty brazen.

To address the issue of qualification: It's very clear to everyone in the industry that yacht designers don't need professional qualifications because they are covered very effectively by classification society rule and design standards which removes all their personal liability. You only need pro qualifications for areas where the class society needs specific design outside of class rules signed off by a suitably indemnified person. That’s usually not required for yacht designers.

Yacht designers are better off working in a design office and getting their experience from another yacht designer, and only working with engineers where they want specific engineering design. No one ever said otherwise did they Brent !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
To get some qualifications on paper doesn't require the ability to think,..........

Brent, there are simple engineering concepts that reading your posts I honestly doubt you could even grasp. I can set you a very simple challenge to illustrate this and challenge your myopic view certainly of physics and engineering graduate level education.
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