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  #2911  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Let’s see:
Most of us here enjoy exploring the edges of yachting from canoes to ocean racing gran prix boats and everything in between. Why? Because we just like boats. We are open to new ideas and we respect the ideas of old. We do our best to investigate all new structural options. We pick and choose what we like and don’t like and we try to be broad minded. We exercise both subjective and objective criteria in making our preferences known. I can’t possibly see how the term “luddite” would apply here. Someone embracing everything from Viking longboats to my Baba 30 to the latest Euro rocket from Paulo would hardly fit the definition of “luddite”.

On the other hand, there are some who cling to a simplistic creative process in a material that is anything but user friendly and consistently produces boats, not yachts, that give no value at all to aesthetics. But still these boats are held up as the “ultimate and only answer” and if you do not agree then you area fool. The same designs are produced over and over as if they had achieved ultimate perfection already and there was no value to change or evolution.. We have seen this philosophy voiced here ad nauseum by one poster. “You do it my way or you are stupid” pretty much sums it up accurately. Given the consistency with this approach I think we have found our textbook definition of “luddite” . But I won’t use that term. I’ll try not to be a name caller. It’s really a low point in the debate when all you have left is name calling and personal attacks.
I’ll make it my New Year’s resolution not to be a name caller.
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Last edited by bobperry; 12-23-2013 at 12:26 PM.
  #2912  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Come on Bob - don't be a pussie.
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  #2913  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Don't worry Jon:
I'll be all sorts of vile things but I'll work hard not to be a name caller.
I do have a reputation to uphold.
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  #2914  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
A fractional rig makes no sense for a cruiser.
Brent, From earlier posts I understand that you are not a fan of fractional rigs for cruisers, but I suggest that you are mistaken when you flatly say that a fractionally rigged sloops makes no sense for a cruiser. At least for many cruisers, especially those interested in performance and ease of handling, a modern fractional rig does make sense. These days, most new cruising designs employ a fractional rig for a range of reasons.

Generally, fractionally rigged sloops are generally closer winded and easier to handle because their smaller jibs and larger mainsail sailplan are easier to power up and down. Without a jibstay to drag the Genoa across, sloops are generally easier to tack. With less hardware fractionally rigged sloops sloops are less expensive to build.

Their smaller jibs are easier to tack and in a building breeze, they are easier to depower and then they reef down to a snug masthead rig. Because virtually all boats develop some weather helm with heel angle, reefing the mainsail, while leaving the jib, makes sense in terms of balancing the helm. But also because the jib represents a smaller portion of the overall sail area, one jib can often function across an extremely wide range of windspeeds. Fractional rigs generally place a lower stress on their hulls and often get by with lighter rigging and hardware for an equal structural safety margin.

One of the major advantages of a fractional rig is the ability, especially when combined with a flexible mast, to use the backstay to control mast bend and sail shape. Increasing backstay tension does a lot of things on a fractional rig: it tensions the forestay which in turn flattens the jib. Increasing backstay tension induces controlled mast bend, which flattens the mainsail and opens the leech of the sail. This allows quick depowering as the wind increases and so allows a fractional rig to sail in a wider wind speed range without reefing, or making a headsail change than a masthead rig, although arguably requiring a bit more sail trimming skills.

In the past fractional rigs used to require running backstays. But today better spar materials and design approaches have pretty much eliminated the need for running backstays. That said, fractional rigs intended for offshore use, will often have running backstays that are only rigged in heavy weather once the mainsail has been reefed. The geometry of these running backstays typically allows the boat to be tacked without tacking the running backstays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Overly asymmetrical looks like poor directional stability. A couple of dagger boards aft, at an outward angle may help.
I am not sure whether the 'overly assymmetrical' comment was directed towards the hull or rig. In terms of the rig, the fractional rigs allow the center of effort to be moved slightly further forward in the boat, and that allows the center of resistance of the keel to be located further forward so that there is a greater separation between the keel and the strut and rudder, improving diectional stability.

In terms of the hull being assymetrical, I have not run any detailed numbers, but I ran a quick calculation at 15 degrees of heel and the center of buoyancy did not move very far foreward, and therefore the boat is not likely to noticably change trim. The waterlines remain fairly symmetrical at that angle of heel as well. There would be some jacking of the rudder at that heel angle but the rudder is reasonably deep and has good surface area so I would not expect the design to be excessively prone to wiping out or broaching.

That said, I ready acknowldge that I am an amateur, and this was not drafted on software that allowed quick calculations at various heel angles. If I thought that I was actually going to build this boat, I would want to work with a professional yacht designer and would expect the lines to be tweaked accordingly.

Jeff
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  #2915  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
It's good to see that everyone is really getting into the Christmas spirit.

Merry Christmas Mike.
Thanks. Merry Christmas Bob. And Brent, and everyone else here. Hope you all have a relaxing time and are fortunate enough to have loved ones to share it with.

Here's raising a glass to the simple pleasure of mucking about with boats !
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  #2916  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I've been off sailnet for a few years but recently started to pop by again.

Having 2 steel boats I was delighted to see such an active thread.

I was then somewhat chagrined to read the last few pages and hear the tone, ug.

Bob, thanks for your post above re: name calling. Who wants to step into a mud slinging contest!

I hope to have some time to catch up on the thread ove the holiday.

Merry Christmas to all.
  #2917  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
I've been off sailnet for a few years but recently started to pop by again.
Welcome back!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
I hope to have some time to catch up on the thread ove the holiday.
Hope you have a looooonng Christmas break!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Merry Christmas to all.
..and to you and yours!
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  #2918  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Hpeer:L
I don't know you.
Do you have a voucher?
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  #2919  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Merry Christmas to all of you.
Here is one of this years crop of cartoon boats. I did this one for the daughter of a friend.
Cartoon boat calendars are available in a powerboat version and a sailboaty version. If you are interested PM me and I can hook you up with the guy who put them together.

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  #2920  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Well, it may not be the salon of a steel sailboat, but I've got this going for me...





...along with two awesome sons and a steaming pot of seafood gumbo bubbling on the stove.

Brent - Merry Christmas! Seriously. I truly hope you have a wonderful holiday.

Everyone else - same to you!
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