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  #2961  
Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Bob,

I don't have any real good photos on my Ipad. This is all I have. I'll try to remember to do better when I get to a real computer.

1985ish. Murray 33, his smallest steel design. Just blasted the hull and found a bad spot due to persistent leak around engine control cable and radar cable. Arg! It's those damn little details.

I've had her in Newfoundland for 8 years, where I could not get the time to do many things right. Now I've got her close at hand.

Ted is a great guy, I've never met him, but we have spoken and consulted with him.
There are many smallish steel boats who's happy owners enjoy cruising in them, constantly putting a lie to the claim by numbers juggling armchair experts, that steel doesn't work in boats under 40 feet.
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  #2962  
Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
Merry Christmas, Peace on earth and good will to all mankind ! Each day should be like this or BETTER. The real golden rule is to treat others like we want to be treated. It takes time to back up and think about this. The best gift we can give is of ourselves.
I just was reading a book about what else Sailing It said that hull material is just 20% of the build cost. Going on it states this is just an economy of 2-4% . Do you all find this to be true? I gather most of my information from what I read, then I must judge it.
I am having a great day off !
regards, Lou
In a steel boat, where you make your anchors , engine mounts, wood stove, tankage, etc out off hull material, the hull material represents a much bigger percentage of the total cost, than it does in non metal boats.
The huge amount of used gear available , for a fraction the cost of new, can even further increase the percentage of the total, represented by the cost of the hull material. We are awash in such goodies.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 12-27-2013 at 06:36 PM.
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  #2963  
Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
Thank both of you for the direct reply. It is nice to have a book club so to speak. This book is - How to sail around the world , Hal Roth - Next part of interest in this book is "A new steel Hull in 15 days ? " Multi chine Hull by E.G Van de Stadt of Wormerveer Holland. So it seems a steel hull can be built with some degree of speed.
The book is not about boat construction and it does not say how many man hours or if it is 15 days multiple shifts / this could translate to be 30-90 days. Time was also saved by accuracy of cnc plasma cutters.
The book is looking at pros and cons , The books major Pro for steal was the hull type made of steal had the best chance against coral.
I am not advocating any one best boat hull be it wood, steal, ferro- cement, fiberglass or other material. I Just brought this up. Because of past claims of speed. I am in no way going to get on the you can walk out one day and decide to build a large vessel in the back yard as fast as a factory. They have engineers and skilled workers capital investment. You would have a back yard
Yes Slocum built the Spray. Let me also point out with humility and no malice as much success as had in his life of adventure some loss was evident.
Just a rehash of many past pages. Felt good to type it
Good Day, Lou
I have tacked together a hull in two days. Decks take another 8 hours. Cabin and wheelhouse 10 hours. Cockpit, about 3 hours. Keels and skeg another 8 to 10 hours. Aperture and stern tube 3 hours. I once built a 36 in Winnipeg in three weeks of 8 to9 hour days. That included shell, tankage , hatches, lifelines, engine mounts , stern tube ,thru hulls ,all deck fittings, self steering, fully detailed mast , anchor winch , etc., etc., in effect all the metal work. He had a welder working on my time off, so he was almost ready for painting in three weeks. I don't have the stamina to do that any more.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 12-27-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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  #2964  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
20k for Dove II. It's things that that which convinced me to not do steel. I was highly enthused to do an Alan Pape design awhile back. Got to the point of looking at plans and taking a welding course. Then calculated out man hours for construction and cost of interiors. I know Brent has the time to look around and do these things cheaply. Even if I had the time I would not be pleased with the result so had planned a white wood and teak interior.Cost of the interior is about the same regards of hull material. Figured with part time professional help was looking at ~7-10k man hours. Figured excluding my labor was looking at 75-100k. In glass you may assume a 20-30% loss ( higher for one offs) and about the same in Al. In real dollars if you use and maintain the boat maybe up to 50% loss over life of ownership ( looking at ~ 10y). But in steel ( even professionally constructed with perfect survey) you will have trouble selling it and then at even greater loses. If you want a metal hull at all levels ( modern design with good sailing performance, decent resale, ease of maintenance, aesthetics) Al makes better boat then Fe.
Steve went from a Mason to a Boreal. From what I understand he is pleased as punch. Wonder if steel owners are running into the same hassles with insurance and yards that wooden boat owner are experiencing.
Plastic boats are being given away. The entire boat market is down. I think the peace of mind knowing you can hit almost anything out there without sinking, puts steel far ahead of most materials . That is why many experienced offshore cruisers prefer steel.
When you are sinking in mid ocean, after colliding with something, the balance on your bank account wont keep you afloat. That doesn't mean much at that point. Numbers didn't help the Sleavins!
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  #2965  
Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent:
I'm still waiting for an explanation of that quote you invented for me. Please provide the exact source of your quote. If you can't it will be just another example of your constant BS. There is a word for people who like to make things up. I don't mind being quoted but it has to be an actual quote of mine and not something you invent for your own ends.

The word I have in mind is "liar".
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Last edited by bobperry; 12-27-2013 at 07:20 PM.
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  #2966  
Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Appears that BS can't provide the origin of that quote. He made it up. That's a low class move but to be expected.
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  #2967  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Boy, here it is a beautiful Christmas Eve, sun shining, nice music on and Brent is just as angry and defensive as ever. Must be a lovely world you live in Brent that keeps you so constantly uptight.

"They don't give a rat's ass what naïve landlubbers think. Nor do I. "
Fine, then why do you get your knickers in a twist at every post that is in opposition to or questions your approach? You get way too upset to convince me. And once again your name calling is a sure fire sign of the weakeness to your arguments. If name calling is the best you can do you have lost the "argument". Didn't anyone bother to teach you that growing up?

"Does what Bob calls "Cosmic Karma ""
Well, there you go again Brent making things up. Inventing facts. Please show me exactly where I used that term. Just cut and paste the exact quote please. I'll wait. And don't change the subject. Please find the quote so you can back up your words.
It takes two to tango Bob. Mikey started it.
According to Bobs theory, when Vladimir Klitchko is in the boxing ring, and his opponent throws a jab at him, the only reason he defends himself is because he is ANGRY! If he was not so ANGRY, he would leave his hands at his sides and let his opponent beat the crap out of him, and would do nothing to defend himself. When he counters, it is only because he is ANGRY!
If he was not so angry, he would not throw a single punch in his defence. Bob would suggest that he should not be so ANGRY, and should simply let his opponent beat the crap out of him, not defend himself nor counter in any way.
That is the type of thinking Bob advocates . I don't think I would trust that kind of logic on any decision making! I certainly wouldn't pay $150 an hour for it!
Your comment about Cosmic Karma was a while back, either in this debate, or the Wolfanzee debate. Don't have the time to find it, but as you seem to have all the time in the world, you can find it yourself, unless I find a time when I have nothing better to do.

Crappy music season is winding down, we have an extra few minutes of daylight ,almost a half hour by the tenth of January, full pension is getting nearer, life is wunnerful!
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  #2968  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I just did an update on post 2939, page 294, if anyone wants to further their education, on structural principles in steel boat building. Check it out.
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  #2969  
Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

A ways back someone asked me to comment on maintenance. Here is a long winded answer.

The Pape and Brewer are two very different boats. The Brewer has more traditional design with framing. The Pape has no stringers, but has rod or pipes at the chimes. This lets any water flow down and not collect.

The Pape has hard insulation, glued in. The hull was electroplated with aluminum. I've had no issues with the Pape except a spot under the refer where there was a persistent leak not properly attended to by the PO. there is an old repair under the head sink from a sink leak, I am told by original owner. We have had a couple of spots of rust that needed attention. Also I added the radar arch and close up 24 bolt holes in the aft deck due to railing etc. the big issue with the Pape is that the sprit rusted out. I replaced it with 316.

While we have put a lot of hours into this boat most was in upgrades. We have had her for about 4 years. 1985ish boat.

The Brewer, 1985ish, is sprayed foam. I'm having some trouble with that now. She has been in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland the whole time we've had her, 8-9 years. She was in excellent shape when bought.

I've had a niggling water leak in the aft cockpit/lazarette area I have only now found. On one side melt water would channel over the seat and the engine control panel cable would direct it into the boat. On the other side spray would get into the hull via the radar cable, radar on a mast on the stern.

These leaks, which I have only now located, have caused me no end of grief. One year the boat filled almost to the floorboards with water. PO had coated the interior of hull with coal tar epoxy. That has, in places come off. In her aft haunches water got in under the foam. Including under the non removable fuel tank. ( it did come out, in 10 pound hunks). I'm in the process of cutting out nicely done interior work to get at the damn foam. So far only the bottom of compartments, I hope.

I will have at least some small bits of replating to do.

About four years ago I started to get wee blisters under the hull paint, tiny rust spots. I tried to sand them out but too many, and they kept coming. This year I had her blasted and am repainting myself, not without trauma. That's another story.

PO had beautiful SS water tanks in keel voids. But because water got into the keels I took them out so I could get at and maintain the insides. That is still damn tough because they are soooo deep. My current plan is to turn the keels into fuel tanks. Lids are about 80% built in basement.

It appears that the interior hull under the foam was painted with zinc chromate primer. Where it stayed dry it is ok, but not where water got to it.

...............

So, the moral of this is.....neither boat requires a whole lot of maintenance. Excepting the sprit, all of the issues I have are related to some kind of failing either a drippy sink, or a weird top side leak. To me that is not maintenance but corrective action.

When I read Brent I have very little to criticize. To restate what I hear him say ..... Do your upmost to build the boat right. Use SS on wear points, close any opportunity for water to get in, use good high quality epoxy inside and lots of it. If you do these things life will be simple.

My woes occurred where those rules were broken.

As to his specific hours quoted? Assuming he is talking very specifically about maintaining the original integrity of the hull coating only, then yes, maybe. I have to assume that is what he meant. Also, that he is accustomed to the "work boat patina" as I am.

I'll say this, in the little time we've had the Pape I've had two incidents where, if she were a glass boat, we would have lost her outright or incurred such extensive damage as to loose her in repair costs.

Last edited by hpeer; 12-27-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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  #2970  
Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

No Brent. Just provide the truth to your post. Your quote.
That's all I ask, just the truth to your post.

You cannot do it. Your babbling does not work.
Show me the post.
I dare you. You made it up.

Doesn't really matter. You are you and I am me.
My work speaks for itself.
And your's speaks for you.

For someone who does not care what people think of his work you behave like a wounded animal.

I am comfy with that.
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Last edited by bobperry; 12-27-2013 at 10:33 PM.
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