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I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
BS from BS. It never ends.
BS goes on about all this experience maintaining a steel boat then he tries to tell us it's 2 hours and $50 a year. So if BS is correct, after ten years with your steel boat you have invested 20 hours of maintainence. Amazing and not to even mention the $500.
I just painted the bottom of an Islander 36 on friday.My friend the owner had already sanded and put an undercoat of epoxy on.The bottom paint was Petits best poison, black.60% cuprous oxide.Good old fashioned bottom paint.it retails for $286 a gallon.We got it with a deep ,deep discount.it took a gallon and a half for 2 coats, a coat in the morning and a coat in the afternoon.total painting time 4 1/2 hours.The paint with the discount was still almost $300, forget about the epoxy under coat,sand paper and sanding time.
Having owned a steeler, that two hours $50 does sound remarkably dodgey to me as well. Even without addressing any possible rust issues that is a most imporbably figure. It takes a damn sight more than two hours a year to keep the plastic lady Bristol, hell it takes that long to keep the dinghy afloat.
Most of us spend more than two hours and $50.00 a year washing our car, I cannot imagine having a boat larger than this one that did not take more than that in time or money.
damn it Mark!
Now I am going to feel the need to figure out how much time I spend spiffing up my car each year. It's a hell of a lot more than two hours. But I use SEVEN BROTHERS organic dishwashing liquid. It works really well and is not too expensive so I may be able to stay under the $50 limit.
I wash my pickup once or twice a week, going in and out of oilfield locations gets it nasty, a lot of lime and calcium in the soil here, so you have to keep it clean. I use either dish liquid like dawn or joy, or something like that, and then I have to clean up the glass and so forth. I figure about $10.00 a week in water, soap, and tire and wheel cleaners, another $5.00 a week on glass cleaner, and then the leather seat cleaner. Let's just say $15.00 a week, and about two hours more or less, a week.
$15.00 per week = $780.00 USD
2 Hours a week = 104 hours
I get $32.50 per hour on straight time so since my time is worth something
$32.50 * 104 =$3,380.00 USD
Total $780.00 + $3,380.00 = $4,160.00
Now maybe other people do not account for their time, but I do, before I pay someone else to do it. If I had it washed here it would cost me $65.00 per wash, so I actually save about $80.00 per week doing it myself, and I do a lot better job of it. My truck is always clean and I am able to get a better resale on it when I trade it in, so it is okay. Not to mention that a clean truck, car, or boat just looks better. I could not live with a rust covered, streaked hull any more than I could with a filthy truck that got my clothes dirty every time I got in and out of it.
I interpreted the 2 hours and $50 comment to be topsides and deck only not bottom.
His boat is only 31 feet.
Which if Brent has stainless at any wear point and only has to touch up a chip now and then on the deck or the topsides I could see those numbers could be real.
And frankly if he went over budget by 400% and it was 8 hours and $200 I would think it would be close enough.
Brent says his paint job has lasted 29 years. AllGrip is generally expected to last about 10 years so I wonder what paint he has used?
Don't use dish soap to wash a car - it is designed to strip wax, grease, oils etc. from dishes and it does the same to a car - all your last wax job disappears.
Pay the $2 and get car washing liquid - it won't strip the last wax job.
I am removing lime, calcium, and sometimes little dots of crude oil, I probably better stick with the dawn or joy, and I usually do not wax my truck more than once a month... dog gone it, now I have to go back and add the cost of the wax into the list..meh, I will give that away.
The car washing liquid does not seem to do well with any crude or other miscellaneous petroleum products that the dish soap takes off. Also I use a very small amount of the soap, and a soft brush. The water here has so much crap in it that you have to dry it with a chamois cloth or it will have spots on it that will need to be buffed out, the minerals in our water are harsh.
I used the car washing soap for a while, on my BMW, but it seemed to blend with the water and make some kind of super strength water spots, little dots all over the car that would appear to have come off with the chamois but once the sun hit that dark forest green paint you could see them from the space station. The dish soap seemed to do better, and when I sold it not too long ago the paint still looked great.
One washes and waxes a truck?!?!?!?! really?!?!?!?! wow!!!!
not sure my cornbinder has had either in its 20 yrs, nor has my 05 chebby! I let the NW rain, not that it really rains much here keep it clean! or those funky twuck wash thingies at the local quarry after loading etc. Then I get both sides, and under wash! why wash myself when I can pay some $200 for a load of rock and get a free twuck warsh!
marty
dang it, now I am sounding like the brent character being a cheep arss!
See if you had a Peterbilt instead of a cornbinder you would have to wash it, but when you are slumming around in farm equipment you do not have to wash it. I even washed my W900 once a week and it was not even a red Pete.
I built my own car out of recycled cans and old golf carts.Im no fool.I dont trust anyone to design something as simple as a car for me,Imagine, getting paid to draw pictures of cars and than expecting companies to use them,absurd.Those clowns at Asiana would have been much better off if theys built there own planes.Mitches second cousin told me that a guy he knew flew one of my plane kits from New York to Tokyo in 4 hours.The disinformation agents were all over that!.
Smack, I was just looking at your boat on the blog thingy, dude, that is a good deal and it is a fine looking boat. Hope you guys enjoy it a lot, and at least you know it will not have huge rust stains running down from the scuppers like some other kind of boat might have... well might have if it was finished.
When Robin Knox johnston finished his circumnavigation in Suhaili, she was drooling rust everywhere, far more so than Moitessiers Joshua. Joshua was built of steel, Suhaili was built of some snobby pretentious material called "TEAK' ( a type of dead vegitation) a far inferior boat building material than steel. Steel cruisers drooling rust are rare, and those which do are obviously doing something wrong. Get it right and you wont have that problem. It is mostly those who have never owned a steel boat who give such naive, foolish advice. I remember Amazons, which had the toe rail made of dead vegitation 3/4 inch above the decks, all the way around, streaked with smog all around ther top sides. Runoff could drool down the topsides anywhere. I use a steel bulwark with two scuppers with stainless drip lips under them, which take any drips clear of the topsides. All crud including urban exhuast fallout is directed to the scuppers and drip lips, keeping it clear of the topsides.The only rust I have is from my anchor chain. If that gets to the scuppers it drips clear of the topsides. This is but one example of how owning a steel boat for many years is critical to designing one for easy mainenance.
Brent I didn't see it that way. I saw your post as an honest description of what it takes to operate in your world. Not pretty but real. I could relate. When you said, " $40 when I launched her. " I remembered the time when I was working in Boston when I literally had to count the change in my pocket to see what I could buy for dinner. Beans? How many? Six beans? Nine beans?
I hated that. Well,,,I didn't hate it. It was just the life I had chosen. But I knew that I would never be happy in that world. I knew my work was valuable and damn it I was going to get paid a reasonable living. I am happy with the result. I can buy half the grocery store now. I like that.
You chose a tough way to see your dreams realised. I do not envy you. I admire you for working hard to see your vision completed. Hang in there. Do your thing. But don;t try to tell others that "their thing" is not valid or enjoyable.
You might want to take that hair shirt off from time to time. It's not becoming. And it smells bad.
Brent I didn't see it that way. I saw your post as an honest description of what it takes to operate in your world. Not pretty but real. I could relate. When you said, " $40 when I launched her. " I remembered the time when I was working in Boston when I literally had to count the change in my pocket to see what I could buy for dinner. Beans? How many? Six beans? Nine beans?
I hated that. Well,,,I didn't hate it. It was just the life I had chosen. But I knew that I would never be happy in that world. I knew my work was valuable and damn it I was going to get paid a reasonable living. I am happy with the result. I can buy half the grocery store now. I like that.
You chose a tough way to see your dreams realized. I do not envy you. I admire you for working hard to see your vision completed. Hang in there. Do your thing. But don;t try to tell others that "their thing" is not valid or enjoyable.
You might want to take that hair shirt off from time to time. It's not becoming. And it smells bad.
Bob, I have long said that the way I finally came to see myself as being successful was when I realized I could go to the grocery store and buy as much as I cared to buy and not have to worry if I would have to put anything back when I got to the checkout. I know that feeling, from both sides of the situation.
A lot of people measure their success with the toys they have, me I think success is measured by being out of debt, able to live within your means and knowing what the neighbors have is just that, what they have, and you cannot compare yourself to others if you want to be happy.
Some people think that being wealthy means having stuff, I think being wealthy is not having debt on the stuff you have, no matter if it is an old pickup and a dinghy, or a G IV and a megayacht. Just my opinion, but I think it is a decent way to judge success.
Boston:
April first 1972 and April first 1973. My take home pay was $173.00 a week. I rode my bike 32 miles a day because I had to. I do not regret a minite of it.
Mak:
I'm with you. Buying groceries with a cavelier attitude is indeed a luxury I enjoy today. Although my neighbor Steve makes me read the sale adds. Tonight I ate prime rib eyes $22.00 a pound. They were pretty good. Not sure they were worth that much. I have to stay away from Whole Foods. I prefer a nice big hamburger patty. I buy a chuck roast and have the butcher grind it up for me. I'm a peasant at heart.
April '72 I was 10.32 miles, you must have been in great shape by the end of that.Go the cheese cake factory and order there Farmhouse special burger, Chedder cheese, bacon on a 1/2 pounder with a fried egg and topped with pork bellies. Its awesome.
I lived in North Beverly. The office was on the tip of Nahant. I did the 16 miles in an average of 55 minutes depending on the weather. I could not afford the food you talk about. My big splurge was two chocolate donuts from Dunkin Donuts with a coffee.
But I was happy. Sometimes I would stop to watch a little league game.
Don't recall ever thinking I was in "good shape", I was a kid. My body did what I asked.
Boston must have been a very expensive place to live then - in '72 I paid $50/month for a suite in a good neighbourhood here. A new Corvette cost about $7K, I bought a near new Yamaha 360 dirt bike for $800. Condo's started at $11K and tract houses were in the $20's.
I would have killed to be taking home $9K then - I was grossing about $4k working at IBM in '72. A $9K income was enough to buy a house and support a family back then - here at least.
Bob, in 1982 when I was still in my last year of high school I got a job for minimum wage, I think it was $1.75 an hour or something close enough that it did not matter, and the pay was retarded low. I still had money to buy gas for the car and a pack of smokes every now and then, and peanut butter and jelly and bread for my lunches. That crappy job, which I worked for three months, broke me of ever wanting to be anyone's employee, so I guess it was a good thing overall, but man you got to know working in a plastic factory, dirty, dangerous, and hot was the worst job I ever worked until I became a business owner and had to work day and night for probably less money a few times. The whole point of it is we all should have some point in our lives where we sat down and had that moment when we realized that it is not how much money you have, but the freedom you have in spending it that counts. If you earn a million dollars an hour but your overhead takes up all but two bucks of that, then you are working for two bucks and hour, and you are probably a millimeter away from a heart attack all the time too.
If you are down in South America and you earn $1200.00 a month, live on a paid for boat, and only work when you really want to or have to in order to scrounge up the money for the slip fees and spend the rest of your time fishing, taking photos in the mountains and enjoying time with your friends and family you would be considered rich in my book. I plan to be rich some day here soon.
My Father lived in Beverly for about 10 years.I was a bike messenger when I first moved here to San Francisco in 1986. I lived on camels, coffee,top ramon and day old donuts, Sometimes Id get a boiled egg to go with the noodles that was living then.
I worked in steel shops til my mid 20s, when I became self employed. After that I was able to live comfortably on a months work a year. I let people who want to build a steel boat, find a site buy the materials acquoire the tools then hire me for an hourly wage plus expenses, and I help them get the basic shell to apoint where they can handle the rest. I dont accept any pay intil I have done something, and dont start the next week's work til I have ben paid for the last one. This minimizes the potential for misunderstanding. Working alongside the owner also minimizes such potential for misunderstanding. The owners also come away with some welding and fabricating skills, which have, in some cases lead to well paying careers, giving me an even greater sense of accomplishment, especially when dealing with youth..Some times I drop in for a few days to help jump start the detailing. Making peoples lifetime dreams come true is a lot more satifying than building money making devices for the corporate world, especially when your efforts and inovations are the only things which makes the dream possible.
I can give some proices for the last 36 I built.
Mast and all standing rigging- zero
Sails - zero.
Sheet and halyard winches - zero
Running rigging and blocks- zero
Two anchors with plenty of almost new rode- zero
He was given an old boat with all the gear listed above, in good shape, for free.
With so many cheap or freebe boats out there, it shows how useless, and needlessly discouraging cost estimates can be.
I started reading this post when it was new and used the discussion, in part, to validate my desire to have a steel yacht for unlimited voyaging. I just bought maybe the best Colvin Gazelle ever put together - probably one of the most expensive - definitely the best equipped and most beautiful - and couldn't be more excited. A nod to you, Brent, for your 'steeled' passion. I hope that the fact that a 'friend' has one is endorsement from you that I've made a good decision. Thanks, always, Smack for your informed commentary. You never disappoint!
Heh-heh. No worries AKA. My aim is always to get at what's true. That's all. As I have said many times, I have nothing against Brent (or steel yachts for that matter) - just his claims that don't jive with the truth as seen in the many examples posted above. Personally, I'll be eager to hear your stories regarding maintenance and equipment and how they jive with Brent's. I'm always open to learn!
Jeezuz Brent: Why so angry if you are having such a great time?
There you go again trying to shove your own judgmental approach down everybody else's thoat.
Relax.
Chill.
Have a drink, a smoke whatever it takes.
Chew your nails.
Enjoy your own ride and know that some of us do not want to be on it. I most certainly do not. But we accept that it is good for you.
Some of us have other ideas.
I am doing exactly what I want to do. I do not want to retire. I just work now at my own pace on my own conditions and I insist on getting well paid for it. My work has value. I produce some beautiful yachts.
You do protest too much me thinks. You do not sound like a happy guy.
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