Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 310 - SailNet Community
 1723Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #3091 of 5317 Old 01-07-2014
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 3,113
Thanks: 20
Thanked 47 Times in 45 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Brent,

Thanks for the first part of your story. Was the first boat Origami style or more conventional steel construction? Hope you will continue with the remainder of the Brent Swain story. When and how did you get into designing the other boats and doing it for others? How many designs, how many boats, etc? Also, building of the designs?

Years ago, here in coastal NC, especially down on Harker's Island, there were old time boat builders who built trawlers and fishing boats of all sizes in wood. I am told that these people would build from a set of simple formulas. The first frame had a certain angle/size, the next a little different, the next still different. I have read that they would sometimes work out the frames (and consequently the design) on the back of an old envelope. The boats were rugged and would last many years (however, steel construction seems to be replacing the old wood construction). How to do the calculations was just passed down form generation to generation. These guys built successful boats, but their skill seemed to center around carpentry more than it did in understanding the forces and stresses working on the boats. I'm guessing that over time and through the generations, they knew, from trial and error in the field on their and other's boats, that a boat of a certain length/beam, needed frames and planking of a certain size. Most of those builders are now gone.
My first steel boat was a 29 footer built in 1979 using traditional construction. My second was an origami boat a 26 footer , most of the steel work done, including detail, in 21 days.
Herreschoff's book "The common Sense of Yacht Design." gives far simpler ways and logic for basic calculations.
Brent Swain is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3092 of 5317 Old 01-07-2014
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 3,113
Thanks: 20
Thanked 47 Times in 45 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob
I thought of a very simple way to eliminate the inevitable leaks on your wooden toe rail as well as other plastic boat deck hardware. You could zip cut the bolts of below decks, flush with the nuts, and glass over them with a 2 inch round of matt. It would be a two man job ,one glassing and another with a heat lamp, kicking the resin off before it landed in the bilge. Having done overhead glassing, I know how easily that happens. With the nut locked in fibreglass you can use a screwdriver to undo the bolts if necessary, and the FG will hold the nut. This is a pain in the ass job , but far less of one in the building stage, rather than later and far less so than rebedding stuff every few years .
Brent Swain is offline  
post #3093 of 5317 Old 01-07-2014
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 3,113
Thanks: 20
Thanked 47 Times in 45 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
In the interest of accuracy it's "Colvins" not "Covins". Tom Colvin is a very well respected and successful designer, known the world over for his work in steel boats. I can't imagine dismissing his work so quickly based on his interior layouts. Almost anybody can rearrange an interior. It sounds very much to me that BS had no idea at all what Stan Huntingford was trying toi tell him. Stan was a very good designer who understood the basic elements of naval architecture. BS does not now understand the basdic elements of naval architecture i.e.182 degree positive RM? and certainly did not know them back then. I'm sure Stan was happy to see the backside of BS leaving his office.
Whatever you do with a Colvin, it is still a very cramped space, with no sitting headroom under the side decks of a 34 footer , and a huge amount of boat length wasted on cockpit. His comments about a small steel boat sagging or hogging if it doesn't have transverse frames, ( like suggesting a corrugated hose will sag or hog more if it doesn't have transverse frames ) displays an abysmal lack of understanding of basic structural principles. What Stan Huntingford was telling me was that he hasn't the foggiest idea of the problems of a wooden deck on a steel hull, in the practical world, and he didn't have the foggiest idea that a 4 inch layer of water will not stay level on a deck heeled 25 degrees.
Here's how the world top designers design a boat
Things change quickly during sailing competition. [VIDEO]
Funny thing! None of my boats has ever done that! I guess I MUST be doing it all wrong ( according to the worlds top experts, who designed this boat)
And you say I should serve an apprenticeship under these types of experts, so I can get it RIGHT, the way they do ?
No thanks!

Last edited by Brent Swain; 01-07-2014 at 10:26 PM.
Brent Swain is offline  
post #3094 of 5317 Old 01-07-2014
Last Man Standing
 
smackdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,002
Thanks: 189
Thanked 186 Times in 178 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats


S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
smackdaddy is offline  
post #3095 of 5317 Old 01-07-2014
Senior Moment Member
 
SloopJonB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 12,701
Thanks: 81
Thanked 100 Times in 96 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Bob
I thought of a very simple way to eliminate the inevitable leaks on your wooden toe rail as well as other plastic boat deck hardware. You could zip cut the bolts of below decks, flush with the nuts, and glass over them with a 2 inch round of matt. It would be a two man job ,one glassing and another with a heat lamp, kicking the resin off before it landed in the bilge. Having done overhead glassing, I know how easily that happens. With the nut locked in fibreglass you can use a screwdriver to undo the bolts if necessary, and the FG will hold the nut. This is a pain in the ass job , but far less of one in the building stage, rather than later and far less so than rebedding stuff every few years .
Sounds good but doesn't work. It seals the joint from leaks but you can't pull the fasteners later - they just spin.

Check out Lackeysailing.com - he just experienced that exact thing.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
SloopJonB is offline  
post #3096 of 5317 Old 01-08-2014
Once known as Hartley18
 
Classic30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,168
Thanks: 51
Thanked 84 Times in 84 Posts
Rep Power: 10
   
Dock
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Sounds good but doesn't work. It seals the joint from leaks but you can't pull the fasteners later - they just spin.
It might seal the joint from leaks, but it also traps any moisture that gets in from above via normal working of the fitting around the bolt thread and deck core itself with no way of escape (no 'tell-tale leak') - and that could be a bad thing.

-
A bad day on a boat beats a good day in the office

Last edited by Classic30; 01-08-2014 at 01:29 AM.
Classic30 is offline  
post #3097 of 5317 Old 01-08-2014
Senior Moment Member
 
SloopJonB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 12,701
Thanks: 81
Thanked 100 Times in 96 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Sealing metal inside glass is a pretty poor idea in all cases that I've seen.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
SloopJonB is offline  
post #3098 of 5317 Old 01-08-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,597
Thanks: 4
Thanked 155 Times in 146 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I'm with JonB on that. It works for a while but can cause big problems over time.

Good old video BS. It was interesting when it was new. But I don't see your point. Are you really comparing your crude steel boats to a cutting edge composite AC boat? If you are you are truly a myopic fool. For the record none of my boats has ever done that either but then I don't design AC racing yachts. It's not at all relevant. BS, your work speaks for itself loud and clear.

We'll have FRANCIS LEE launched and sailing soon. I'll post many pics of it sailing. It will be a very beautiful boat with planty of sitting headroom under the side decks. I'll let Francis LEE speak for itself.

We live and work in very different worlds BS. I think we have almost nothing in common. I think NIGHT RUNNER, with it's impressive record of offshore cruising and succesful racing while looking beautiful makes my point succinctly.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 01-08-2014 at 07:59 AM.
bobperry is offline  
post #3099 of 5317 Old 01-08-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: South of Albuquerque
Posts: 546
Thanks: 14
Thanked 24 Times in 22 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

There aught to be more than a few people willing to wax and buff NIGHT RUNNER just to be near that lovely ship.

Zen is a matter of recognizing reality.
desert rat is offline  
post #3100 of 5317 Old 01-08-2014
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 3,113
Thanks: 20
Thanked 47 Times in 45 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Cutting edge is as cutting edge does. A boat which comes even close to being able to break in half, is not as good a cruising boat as one which could sail right thru such a boat, without suffering significant damage. How close to being able to break in half are your boats, based on the same calculations?
It looks like they paid their full attention to the tension on the centreline, while ignoring the compression on the decks. Cutting a huge section of this out, by taking the cockpit to the rail, cut out a huge part of the decks ability to resist this compression. That is where she broke.
A hex nut cast in solid fibreglass doesn't turn easily. Bronze may be better able to resist corrosion, than stainless, in such a sealed environment .Or you can simply accept a whole lot of inevitable deck leaks there.
Or you can build a metal boat and have zero deck leaks, and sleep in a dry bunk( Novel thought for those who have only plastic and wood boat experience.)
My first boat had varnished cabin sides ,toe rails, hatches , cockpit coamings, etc. No one could convince me how dense that was on a cruising boat. Many tried . Only experience could . Another friend, Dave , had a similar set of priorities. Al had a boat which had not a speck of bright work. In Victoria , I was maintaining my bright work, while Dave was maintaining his. Al was sightseeing and golfing. When we got to Frisco bay, I was maintaining my brightwork, while Dave was maintaining his. Al was sightseeing and golfing. When we got to Auckland, I was maintaining my brightwork, and Dave was maintaining his , while Al was sightseeing and golfing. When we got to Vanuatu , I had major work to do, maintaining my brightwork, as did Dave, while Al went snorkeling, golfing and sightseeing. Lost that boat in Fiji , came home and built another, with not a stitch of brightwork anywhere.
Sailed to Maple Bay, where I found Dave . He had canvased over his teak decks and painted all his brightwork. I said
"After watching Dave have all that playtime, while we had nothing but work to do, I guess we arrived at the same conclusion at roughly the same time. Took along time to sink in. Man was that dense!
Dave agreed."

Last edited by Brent Swain; 01-08-2014 at 02:22 PM.
Brent Swain is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
C & C 24 pros and cons chuckg Boat Review and Purchase Forum 13 05-20-2015 12:05 AM
Hunter 36 Pros and Cons? turfguy Hunter 15 08-25-2014 05:08 PM
Pros and Cons of Catalina 350?? turfguy C350 6 10-16-2009 05:17 PM
Watermakers—Pros and Cons Tom Wood Cruising Articles 0 06-11-2002 08:00 PM
Steel Hulls—Pros and Cons Sue & Larry Buying a Boat Articles 0 09-12-2001 08:00 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome