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  #311  
Old 07-28-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
My moms a artist as well.Taught at h.s. and college level.dad did advertising ran a ad house. Not only does color effect perception of shape and size but also has major emotional impact. Sister ship came in two days ago for outfitting. Mine is white with black details ( bootstrap,cove line etc.) his is white and a baby blue. My interior is blond teak, off white corian marbled with earth tones and beige/tan micro suede . His is blue and blue tartan. Same crew is in and out of both boats outfitting. In my boat they converse. In his the volume goes up
Now that is interesting - I don't think I've ever noticed that speech levels change in relation to the colour environment - now I'm going to be watching for it.
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  #312  
Old 07-28-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Can't say I have an eye for color but I have looked at a lot of boats and I know what colors work and why. I notice that almost all car adds on TV feature dark colored cars. I love dark hulls but I know they can be a PITA to maintain. The color scheme of my boats is seldom my call. I offer advice and let the owner do his thing, As Jon pointed out, today we will most probably have 3D renderings well before the boat is finished so colors can be explored ad nauseum.
Bob - was I correct in my assumption that with those amazing renderings the colour is "only a click away" or does it take some effort to change it?
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  #313  
Old 07-28-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jon:
I'm not sure. I don't do that magic. But I know enough about those programs to figure that yes, the color change is only a click away. The hard part comes with trying to match the color your monitor shows you with the color you will get on a print. But an experienced hand will have his favorite colors nailed.
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  #314  
Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
I'm looking forward to when Brent gets back.
I ordered his book.
Sent a book to Madison yesterday. Thanks
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  #315  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
After seeing this quote from Brent in Bob's thread:



I was curious who this Kasten dude was. So I found some of his stuff. Sounds like a pretty reasonable guy with some pretty good experience. He has a good breakdown of the different metal building methods (including Origami) here:

Frames First or Plating First...?

And though his conclusion was that the origami method was interesting and clever, it was, at the end of the day, not really all that.

Even so, he doesn't seem to be pushing any "myths". As for the shape issue, all he says is pretty much what Brent says above. From Kasten's article...



Sounds about right.

Some may wonder why I'm so interested in this. Well, it's pretty simple...I have a Degree in Architecture and worked in it for several years before I became an entrepreneur. I was always drawn to organic works by guys like the Saarinens, Utzon, etc. While I was in school, there was this "crazy dude" in our area who was building a house on a cliff overlooking a lake - completely out of steel...



I loved it. I was amazed by it. But I also understood that this thing was taking decades to get done...by a guy who knew exactly what he was doing.

So, I love the concept of origami boats. It's brilliant really. I just want to really, and honestly understand what it takes to do one, and do it well, by someone who knows little about the whole process (i.e. - the Wannabe Cruiser).
Anyone can check the origamiboats site ( yahoo groups) or my book, or Alex's video and see origami methods being used to build decks, cabins, keels, rudders, skegs, cockpit and wheelhouses which we have done since the first origami boats I built in 1980, something Kasten says cant be done. Origami methods mean welding deck beams and stringers on, on a workbench working at a comfortable level ,eliminating overhead welding in awkward positions for that job.
This can also be done with traditional framed boats, saving ahuge amount of overhead, awkward work. It is clear that Kasten made his comments without bothering to educate himself on the subject of origami methods. I have pointed this out to him in an email , so he is no longer oblivious to the facts, yet he continues the disinformation campaign, holding back the advancement of small steel boat construction..
As I pointed out, I have put the decks on a 36 in 8 hours, not so easy working overhead in the traditional way. My time and money saving methods go far beyond the construction of a hull, including saving a lot of money on detailing and fitting out.. You can get more factual information from the origamiboats site, yahoo groups, from people who have actual hands on experience with the method, rather than uninformed speculation, misleadingly offered as fact .
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  #316  
Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Woohoo! Welcome back Brent!
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  #317  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I sincerely apologise to Bobs wife, for involving someone who is not involved in any way. After Bobs very personal insults to me and my work, I guess I didn't see the part where he and others are allowed to insult anyone they please with impunity, and their targets are nor allowed to respond in kind. I had no business involving an inocent third party. If you go back you will find my responses are just that, responses to personal insults, first hurled at me.
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  #318  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I sincerely apologise to Bobs wife, for involving someone who is not involved in any way. I had no business involving an inocent third party.
Fixed it for you. This is really all that matters.
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  #319  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
My thoughts are this:
I respect BS's origami method. It's clever.
It gives a fair hull based on the constraints of the geometric method.
But it's all about the method.
BS doesn't like to talk about numbers. Why?
He has none.
He doesn't even know what the boat displaces until he is done shaping it.
He sure as hell doesn't have a clue as to the basis hydrostatic paramaters.
He doesn't like numbers.

Is this bad?
No.
The eye is the the final judge. Then the sea.
But why ignore a very powereful tool in shaping your boats. Numbers can allow us to compare one hull to the next in an objective way. I always trust my eye. But, I do not ignore the numbers.

BS reacts very defensively when numbers come up. That should tell you something. He has no numbers. He can't even produce a 2D weight study. He gets very angry when you ask for one. It is an essential Yacht Design 101 component of design.

Would you like me to post a weight study? I'd be proud to do it. It's boring stuff but essential if you are going to be in control of the boat your are "designing".

How many weight studies do you want to see?
The SLIVER project weight study woukld be a good, simple one to start with.

I am very proud of the fact that I do a thorough job of designing new boats. I want to look at my own work and say, ""Hey Bob, that is really good." You did it in a way that is recognized as good naval architecture by people who know naval architecture.

The results speak for themselves.
Back in the 80s, computers we have today were unavailable. I began by designing the hull shape in the traditional way, doing all the displacement calculations, prismatic coefficient, longitudinal centre of buoyancy, heeled centre of buoyancy , etc. etc. on a pocket calculator. I liked the dimensions of my Pipe Dream sloop , beam, deadrise, freeboard etc , but not the abysmal lack of hull balance and lack of directional stability, nor her deep V bows which pounded like hell while beating from Vanuatu to Fiji. So I stuck with the good points. The interesting thing about my 36 was ,when I first drew her up, while it can take many days to get things right, erasing and redrawing lines to get the numbers right , for the 36 they seemed to just drop into place. On the first drawing the LBC was right where I wanted it, 5.4 stations, as was the prismatic coefficient, .54 ,and the displacement. I rechecked it several times and it was right on. Ditto the hull balance, when heeled 25 degrees.

I then, carefully made a very accurate model, to take the plate shapes off. The model also gives you the option of double checking the LCB, by ballasting it till it floats on her lines, then balancing the model on a pencil. The balance point is your LCB. Weighing it, then multiplying the model's weight by the cube of the scale, gives you the weigh of the full sized boat ,floating on the same waterline. For a 1/12th scale, that means multiplying the weigh to the model by 1728 to get the weight of the finished hull.
When Allan Farrel who has built many very successful boats by eye, over many decades, never calculating anything mathematically, made a model of his traditional junk 'China Cloud" again with no calculations, I took his model to a digital grocery store scale, and had it weighed. Mutiplying this weight by the cube of the scale, gave me 13,000 lbs which is what she weighed floating on her lines.
This backup is far harder to screw up on, and gives one a very fool proof double check of ones calculations. It also gives one a double check on aesthetics, which can be very different in 3D compared to what one sees on a drawing.
All my clients buy their own steel, by the pound ,so the weight of the steel is on their receipts. The calculations for the pipe Dream Sloop, a 36 is in the back of the book "Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, given at around 710 lbs. Interiors for most 36 footers needn't vary much from that , and if they go radically different , there is no predicting what it will be.
Variations in the amount of goodies different owners put aboard can be thousands of pounds. Do you calculate the weight of scuba gear, for one diver aboard, two divers, or a whole family of divers, in cold water with heavy weight belts, or warm water with no weight belts? Tools , very different, depending on ones degree of independence or profession.
Some people are packrats, some are Spartans. Some are land dwelling weekenders, some live aboard full time, and have no place ashore for storage. No two boats will have the same weight of stuff aboard. The differences are far greater than anything you can calculate or predict. The final analysis is how well the boats on average sail and their passage times. That is what boats are for, not just to make the numbers match.. Mine do well on all such criteria, which is all that matters in the long run. I go by feedback, from those who make long voyages in my boats, not by speculation from those with minimal or no offshore long term cruising experience, or who have never owned and maintained a steel boat for any length of time, and who just repeat disinformation from those trying to sell you something else.

In the early 80s, there was a Dutch designed steel boat in Maple Bay. The hull was 1/8th inch plate. They had turned the building of the interior over to carpenters, who lined the entire hull with 1 inch plywood, then covered that with 1 inch teak, then built a very heavy interior on that. Was it the designers fault hat she floated far below her designed waterline? I think not!
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 07-30-2013 at 06:37 PM.
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  #320  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by jak3b View Post
Lots of steel boats have been built by amatures in less then ideal conditions.IMHO there are even some good looking ones with chines.The Wylo II comes to mind.Folded plate construction(Origami) has been around for a while.Its not "Brents" he didnt originate it.He did not originate DIY either.He didnt invent ocean cruising,sailing, welding, or anything else as far as I can tell.The claim that he "pulls a hull and deck together' really means he has only tack welded it together.Its far from a complete shell.There is still many hours of welding to go just to get a empty shell.You can save alot of money fabricating fittings,using discarded wood for an interior.But even cheap epoxy is expensive(Yogi Barra?).For my area just a space to build in is expensive as hell.Trevor Robertson built his wylo Iron Bark in 2 years.Hes sailed her 100,000+ miles including wintering over in Antartica and Greenland. This is and interview with him and Annie Hill.Annie Hill & Trevor Robertson - YouTube
He seems like a nice guy.He probably wont insult your wife or belittle you for your choices.
Reducing the number of feet of chine weld from 400 feet to 28 feet definitely reduces welding time. Alex paid $20 a month for the farm yard he built in. My methods don't require a shop. Very few of my boats have been built inside.
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