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  #3251  
Old 01-18-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Yeah, but the important thing here BS is that you never apprenticed with a designer of note. You skipped that vital part. That is why you make such silly comments about the elements of naval architecture. You just don't know. So, you make stuff up. In doing so you becaome a silly person saying silly things. You can weld steel plate together so it looks like a boat. But that is it.

For me, part of the fun of my job at Carter's was working alongside Yves-Marie Tanton and Chuck Paine. Nobody had all the answers but each of us had a few of the answers and we spent many hours discuissing the various aspects of yacht design. We talked about little else. That is vary valuable time to a young aspiring designer. I will let my own work be testimony to the value of that time.

Being angry will not get you anywhere. Being narrow minded is not helpful either.
Be accurate. Show the results of your work. Post photos of your successes. Post drawings to display your design skills.

I'm having fun tonight with my new 25" monitor. It took a few hours in hell to get it to talk with my other monitor but I seemed, with the help of my brilliant son Max, to have whooped it into submission. It looks marvelous. Glad I got that handled.
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Last edited by bobperry; 01-19-2014 at 07:45 AM.
  #3252  
Old 01-18-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
One part of the indoctrination process in apprenticing for a designer, is to learn to treat your clients bank account as your own personal advertising budget, at your client's expense. That is why some designers advocate aluminium over steel, with total disregard for his clients costs. What is important for the designer is the boat looking pretty and sailing slightly faster, AFTER the client has spent years paying for her. There is no doubt that an aluminium boat will be slightly faster in light airs, and will never show red rust, and aluminium corrosion is less visible. Is this important enough to justify the huge increase in costs to the client, and to justify him taking that much longer to get away ? It isn't to the designer, who has the client thus pay his advertising costs for him. It may well be to the client, who may be looking at years longer on the treadmill, mainly for the benefit of the designer.
Damn those designers! Almost like non-paying "citizens" treating government pensions as their due.

It seems to me if a clients priority is to get out there fast, then get on YachtWorld, find a well-maintained boat, buy it, and go. I could be totally wrong here but it seems to me that the time it would take to find a boat in good shape, make some minor repairs/modifications, do a shakedown, fix any problems, and go would be quicker than researching a designer, drawing up a design (or even using an existing design), acquiring the materials, building the project, doing seatrials to find all the bugs that are bound to be present in a new build, fixing them, and then going.

I don't know jack compared to most of you but I can tell you this. If I decided to be a "client" and commissioned someone to design a boat for me, you can bet your a$$ I would be checking out not only your qualifications and reputation, but I would be talking to everyone from current and previous clients to your competition before I laid out the first dollar! There is no way I would trust someone that can't or won't suggest alternative construction materials. If you could not present me with a list of references or referrals, no chance of you getting my business. If you are not proud enough of your designs and love your work well enough to be able to show me pics of your work or show actual documentation proving what you say is accurate, you would not get a penny from me.

Having said that, Brent, could you work with a client that wants every assurance that the designer he is entrusting his/her hard-earned dollars to is everything he claims? Would you be able to satisfy all the criteria I mentioned above in a prompt manner? And if you would, why haven't you done that here? Plenty of people have asked you to do just that but you haven't. There are a lot of people that read these posts that haven't actually joined the forums. Think of all the potential clients that could be following this discussion that you could be helping to realize their cruising dreams.
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  #3253  
Old 01-19-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
1inch fir planking is around 3 lbs per sq ft, 3/16th plate is around 7.5 lbs per sq ft. Fir has a tensile strength of 1500 psi steel around 60,000. or 11250 psi for 3/16th plate. Thus 3/16th plate has 2.5 times the weight of 1 inch planking and 7.5 times the strength.
However wood only has tensile strength along the grain, very little across the grain, and in a cold molded fir hull only a third of the veneers has the grain going in any one direction. Steel has equal strength in all directions. Thus in a cold molded one inch thick hull, the tensile strength of wood is slightly over 1/3rd the tensile strength of wood, about 600 PSI. 3/16th steel is roughly 18.5 times the strength of 1 inch cold molded planking. However, in high stress areas, like chain plates and keel bolts, all loads are across the grain, on all three veneers.
There is nothing weaker than a wooden boat, unavoidably!
Now mr Swain, you keep repeating "tensile strength" as this is something of a mantra for you. Your reasoning demonstrates clearly that you have hardly had any engineering education, no real knowledge about engineering design.

Let's for simplicity say that wooden boats are constructed in either of two ways:
a) traditional: planking on frames.
Here the frames contribute very much to the overall strength of the hull. Frame thickness is, for a typical 32-36 sailing boat, in the order of 1"-2", planing thickness maybe 1". Frame distance ~1 ft.
The wood in the frames are othorgonal to the planking.
The overall hull strength is immense, much more than needed for a typical life time of such a boat.

b) cold baked vaneer.
Here a very strong shell is created by having the veneer cross diagonal. The veneer acts as the reinforcement, the epoxy binds it together. As wellknown from wood industry, two pieces of wood glued together is stronger than one of the same size - quoting tensile strength of fir has no relevance at all in this context (fir is not much used in boat construction, by the way ...).
As with all strong materials, this has to be supported by frames, interior etc. It is possible to achieve some strenth in the "shell" (ie the hull) by introducing some curvature, but this is only sufficient for smaller hulls.


Wooden boats have proven to work very well for houndreds of years. The are many sailing boats still sailing being more than 100 years old. In the harbour where I have my boat there are now about five sailing boats older than 100 years. Still sailing.
And BTW, in our harbour there are no (none, zil, nada, ingen) sail boat made of steel. That favourite argument of yours, mr Swain, about hitting rock ... well, as our sailing areas look we regularly hit rock. Often, for many of us usually more than once a year. Still no steel boats ....


/J
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  #3254  
Old 01-19-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I think that's Brent's primary difficulty. We see steel boats comprising very small percentage of total sailboat construction . Perhaps less than1% and virtually non existent in new construction. This is even true for voyaging or high latitude boats. Given the market has spoken there are few designers developing new designs and very few yards constructing sailboats in steel. With the decline of the fishing industry few yards are able to maintain these vessels. A prospective owner is now totally dependent on building a old design and maintaining it himself. This enterprise is so daunting few will commit. In the absence of a critical mass of owners to change this steel will remain a side note of a niche industry consisting of" true believers". Although this is unfortunate as steel has much to offer it is very unlikely to change. It seems Brent views this as a conspiracy or due to ignorance. This is to be expected in a " true believer". His arguments to get folks to become " true believers" are uncut by his lack of formal education in his chosen field, his blindness to what is going on around him, basic understanding of market forces or the obligations and contingencies his prospective market faces.
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  #3255  
Old 01-20-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Yeah, but the important thing here BS is that you never apprenticed with a designer of note. You skipped that vital part. That is why you make such silly comments about the elements of naval architecture. You just don't know. So, you make stuff up. In doing so you becaome a silly person saying silly things. You can weld steel plate together so it looks like a boat. But that is it.

For me, part of the fun of my job at Carter's was working alongside Yves-Marie Tanton and Chuck Paine. Nobody had all the answers but each of us had a few of the answers and we spent many hours discuissing the various aspects of yacht design. We talked about little else. That is vary valuable time to a young aspiring designer. I will let my own work be testimony to the value of that time.

Being angry will not get you anywhere. Being narrow minded is not helpful either.
Be accurate. Show the results of your work. Post photos of your successes. Post drawings to display your design skills.

I'm having fun tonight with my new 25" monitor. It took a few hours in hell to get it to talk with my other monitor but I seemed, with the help of my brilliant son Max, to have whooped it into submission. It looks marvelous. Glad I got that handled.
Yes Bob, while you were talking about boat design inside the warm comfort of an office ,I was out actually cruising full time ,experiencing in the real wold how things work or don't work, something you have never done. My comments are based on decades of first hand ,hands on experience , both cruising and building, not purely on something I read somewhere.
.Your implication that theory is more reliable than experienced reality ,is like saying that future weather forecasts are more accurate and reliable than yesterdays weather record! That's laughable!
  #3256  
Old 01-20-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
I think that's Brent's primary difficulty. We see steel boats comprising very small percentage of total sailboat construction . Perhaps less than1% and virtually non existent in new construction. This is even true for voyaging or high latitude boats. Given the market has spoken there are few designers developing new designs and very few yards constructing sailboats in steel. With the decline of the fishing industry few yards are able to maintain these vessels. A prospective owner is now totally dependent on building a old design and maintaining it himself. This enterprise is so daunting few will commit. In the absence of a critical mass of owners to change this steel will remain a side note of a niche industry consisting of" true believers". Although this is unfortunate as steel has much to offer it is very unlikely to change. It seems Brent views this as a conspiracy or due to ignorance. This is to be expected in a " true believer". His arguments to get folks to become " true believers" are uncut by his lack of formal education in his chosen field, his blindness to what is going on around him, basic understanding of market forces or the obligations and contingencies his prospective market faces.
That is because you are thinking in terms of plastic boats , where the hull and decks are small portion of the finished boat, and because you are thinking in terms of all new gear at retail prices. In most of my boats that is anything but the truth. My clients are simply not that dense.
  #3257  
Old 01-20-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"My comments are based on decades of first hand ,hands on experience , both cruising and building, not purely on something I read somewhere."

Fine BS. My comments are made after looking at the boats you produce.
I think your work speaks for itself loud and clear. I think you know it is is inferior and that is why you never post your design drawings and very rarely ever have a photo of one of your boats to post. If your work is so great show us. Show us your design work.

I'm very proud of what I have designed and accomplished. I can post pics of my beautiful and succesful boats all day long. They built 120 of these. Ten of the 7.5m models were just sold to a group in Canada.
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  #3258  
Old 01-20-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

And if that doesn't do anything for you,,,how about:

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  #3259  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I can do this all day:
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  #3260  
Old 01-20-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Here's today's work. I think Outbound will like this one. It's still a work in progress but it is shaping up. Check out the curved house sides.
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