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  #3271  
Old 01-20-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I have a pic somewhere of davids and my boat at his former slip.....can not find it at this time. They look similar, I would imagine sail similar dispite mine being 7-8' shorter. Then again, mine is french, his canadian........hmmmmmmm.......well anyway, mine is also more on the race cruise side, his cruiser. but both can sail.

This is a pic of my boyz, they seem similar to spike in how they react to some things vs me.........having a drink in memory of their grandma pat at the STYC pink poat regatta.


I'll have them ahve a drink for spike! as will I.

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  #3272  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

One of my favorite places in the world is sitting on deck with my back against the forward trunk. Leave the slope in.
We all have a Spike. A wonderful soul never gone. Just got call from the daughter of one of my best friends. They stopped the chemo and sent him home. We' ll never go sailing again. I'm crying. Bye.
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  #3273  
Old 01-20-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by djodenda View Post


My boat (CS 36 Merlin) is more angular than curved on the topsides. I find it aesthetically a bit harsh..

One thing I do like about it is that since the transitions between surfaces aren't large, it seems that I have more horizontal or near-horizontal surfaces to stand on..

My feet seem to understand: "Now I am on the flat, angled part transitioning to the foredeck... Adjust accordingly"

Does this make sense?

It just seems to me that I have better balance on my boat with the angular topsides..

On a similar note, my friend's 1D35 has a large, curved transition between the deck and hull.. There are no rails.

This is great for hiking.

This also a great way to lose things over the side..
Re: the highlight - it absolutely makes sense. Our feet are designed to work on "flat" (relatively) surfaces, particularly in shoes. Curved surfaces are much harder to maintain footing on.

Walk across a grassy field and then climb on some big boulders if you doubt it.
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  #3274  
Old 01-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
One of my favorite places in the world is sitting on deck with my back against the forward trunk. Leave the slope in.
We all have a Spike. A wonderful soul never gone. Just got call from the daughter of one of my best friends. They stopped the chemo and sent him home. We' ll never go sailing again. I'm crying. Bye.
I once read something to the effect that we are never truly gone until the last person with a memory of us dies.

I kind of like that - it's a pretty long time even for very ordinary people.
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  #3275  
Old 01-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Denda:
That is exactly what we have been playing with all day. We need to strike a balance between what works and what looks best. We have been fiddling with ways to end the lower cabin trunk forward. We either have a distinct step and that gives us a squared off look to the front of the house. Or we go with a slope, a "ramp". The trouble comes when the end of the house is neither a step nor a ramp but something inbetween. We are still mucking around with it. My old Esprit had a ramp with a 14 degree slope to it. It worked perfectly. Just have to convince the client.
A wet ramp can be a launching ramp if you slip on it with wet feet. With bit of slope, you are either on it or not.

That is another reason I like my handrails along the cabin side corner rather than inboard. It acts like a toe rail on slippery feet, as well as protecting the corner of a steel cabin side from paint chipping.
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  #3276  
Old 01-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Yeah, but the important thing here BS is that you never apprenticed with a designer of note. You skipped that vital part. That is why you make such silly comments about the elements of naval architecture. You just don't know. So, you make stuff up. In doing so you becaome a silly person saying silly things. You can weld steel plate together so it looks like a boat. But that is it.

For me, part of the fun of my job at Carter's was working alongside Yves-Marie Tanton and Chuck Paine. Nobody had all the answers but each of us had a few of the answers and we spent many hours discuissing the various aspects of yacht design. We talked about little else. That is vary valuable time to a young aspiring designer. I will let my own work be testimony to the value of that time.

Being angry will not get you anywhere. Being narrow minded is not helpful either.
Be accurate. Show the results of your work. Post photos of your successes. Post drawings to display your design skills.

I'm having fun tonight with my new 25" monitor. It took a few hours in hell to get it to talk with my other monitor but I seemed, with the help of my brilliant son Max, to have whooped it into submission. It looks marvelous. Glad I got that handled.
When I and my builders and clients get together ,we have some long talks about design and building practicalities, as well as feedback form decades of cruising in my boats .
When reading Bobs posts ,one should keep in mind that his definition of "Angry" is "Any time anyone disagrees with him."
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  #3277  
Old 01-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
Damn those designers! Almost like non-paying "citizens" treating government pensions as their due.

It seems to me if a clients priority is to get out there fast, then get on YachtWorld, find a well-maintained boat, buy it, and go. I could be totally wrong here but it seems to me that the time it would take to find a boat in good shape, make some minor repairs/modifications, do a shakedown, fix any problems, and go would be quicker than researching a designer, drawing up a design (or even using an existing design), acquiring the materials, building the project, doing seatrials to find all the bugs that are bound to be present in a new build, fixing them, and then going.

I don't know jack compared to most of you but I can tell you this. If I decided to be a "client" and commissioned someone to design a boat for me, you can bet your a$$ I would be checking out not only your qualifications and reputation, but I would be talking to everyone from current and previous clients to your competition before I laid out the first dollar! There is no way I would trust someone that can't or won't suggest alternative construction materials. If you could not present me with a list of references or referrals, no chance of you getting my business. If you are not proud enough of your designs and love your work well enough to be able to show me pics of your work or show actual documentation proving what you say is accurate, you would not get a penny from me.

Having said that, Brent, could you work with a client that wants every assurance that the designer he is entrusting his/her hard-earned dollars to is everything he claims? Would you be able to satisfy all the criteria I mentioned above in a prompt manner? And if you would, why haven't you done that here? Plenty of people have asked you to do just that but you haven't. There are a lot of people that read these posts that haven't actually joined the forums. Think of all the potential clients that could be following this discussion that you could be helping to realize their cruising dreams.
I don't do custom designing . The plans I sell are those I have already designed ,which have decades of feed back from hundreds of thousands of miles experience. If you talk to anyone with a lot of experience in my boats such as Winston , Steve, Jack Carson , Don Shore, etc. you will find the only critics of my boats are those who know nothing about them, and who have zero experience in what they are talking about .
My posts are not about attracting potential clients, they are about informing would be boat builders what their options are, and that a steel boat doesn't have to be extremely time and money consuming, nor does it need a lot of expensive equipment nor expertise to build .
I offer a service to enable home builders to get into an inexpensive, good looking, very well proven steel boat, without taking ten years, or a kings ransom to get out cruising in.
If that is not what you are looking for, then I am not the guy you are looking for. I have enough money and don't need the hassle of seeking more . I intend to continue make available plans designed with advantages of steel , for those who seek them . If you would rather build with outdated methods, and useless wastes of time designed into them, then go ahead. No skin off my ass.
The Energy Minister once said "Brent , why don't you set up shop and begin serious production of these boats ?"I told him "Why don't you? I am making all the money I need with my low cost lifestyle, which I love, and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world. So why would I screw it up, persuing something I neither want nor need?"
Selling books and plans will become a bit of a burden, once pension kicks in, but I will continue, to enable home builders to get the info they need, which would otherwise be unavailable to them.
I'd love to hand the works over to the womens' shelters as a source of funding for them, but they say they couldn't handle it.

Apprentice with who? The world class experts who designed the boat which broke in half in moderate conditions? None of mine has ever had any structural problems of any kind at sea, in any conditions. The world reknown designer who designed my first boat, which was an abortion? People who have never got their hands dirty building or cruising in steel, and thus know nothing about the material? People who have never cruised long term in any steel boat, nor maintained one long term, and thus know nothing about the subject they are giving advice and apprenticeships in? People who know a lot less about these subjects than I do?
I would never stoop so low, as to give them any control over what I do!
I think steel boat cruisers would be far better off had they served an apprenticeship under me.
If I had done an apprenticeship under such people , I would had all the logic indoctrinated out of me, just like so many who did.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 01-23-2014 at 09:19 PM.
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  #3278  
Old 01-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
"Brent , why don't you set up shop and begin serious production of these boats ?"I told him "Why don't you? I am making all the money I need with my low cost lifestyle, which I love, and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world. So why would I screw it up, persuing something I neither want nor need?"
Selling books and plans will become a bit of a burden, once pension kicks in, but I will continue, to enable home builders to get the info they need, which would otherwise be unavailable to them.
I'd love to hand the works over to the womens' shelters as a source of funding for them, but they say they couldn't handle it.
I'm going to puke. Why let a pension you didn't earn ruin that low cost lifestyle you love? Ah, yes, you're greedy - just like all those "treadmillers" you think you're better than.

"Women's shelters" funded by BS.



Good lord you have no bounds.
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  #3279  
Old 01-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I don't do custom designing . The plans I sell are those I have already designed ,which have decades of feed back from hundreds of thousands of miles experience. If you talk to anyone with a lot of experience in my boats such as Winston , Steve, Jack Carson , Don Shore, etc. you will find the only critics of my boats are those who know nothing about them, and who have zero experience in what they are talking about .
My posts are not about attracting potential clients, they are about informing would be boat builders what their options are, and that a steel boat doesn't have to be extremely time and money consuming, nor does it need a lot of expensive equipment nor expertise to build .
I offer a service to enable home builders to get into an inexpensive, good looking, very well proven steel boat, without taking ten years, or a kings ransom to get out cruising in.
If that is not what you are looking for, then I am not the guy you are looking for. I have enough money and don't need the hassle of seeking more . I intend to continue make available plans designed with advantages of steel , for those who seek them . If you would rather build with outdated methods, and useless wastes of time designed into them, then go ahead. No skin off my ass.
The Energy Minister once said "Brent , why don't you set up shop and begin serious production of these boats ?"I told him "Why don't you? I am making all the money I need with my low cost lifestyle, which I love, and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world. So why would I screw it up, persuing something I neither want nor need?"
Selling books and plans will become a bit of a burden, once pension kicks in, but I will continue, to enable home builders to get the info they need, which would otherwise be unavailable to them.
I'd love to hand the works over to the womens' shelters as a source of funding for them, but they say they couldn't handle it.

Apprentice with who? The world class experts who designed the boat which broke in half in moderate conditions? The world reknown designer who designed my first boat, which was an abortion?
If I had done that I would had all the logic indoctrinated out of me, just like so many who did.
The people I see criticizing you are including statements that can be verified. They are citing scientific theory that is widely known and accepted. They are not spouting contradictory statements and backing it up by repeating your endless experience with cruising, designing, and building steel boats. They are posting pictures of their work while you keep talking. The only option I've seen you share is origami steel done your way. Everything else is either infinitely inferior, too expensive, or seriously outdated.

Certainly your method is an option and yes, steel is a seriously tough material. I haven't seen anyone dispute that. What I have seen is people with engineering and/or design experience question your claims or ask you to back up those claims with tangible proof and all you do is tell them they don't know anything because they have zero experience with steel. I'm very interested in options and definitely interested in saving money, but quite frankly, I want a boat that looks good. What I don't want are mismatched portlights because the local salvage shop had 3 of these and 5 of those. I want a winch that works dependably and wont abrade a line rather than some old transmission gears cobbled up in a reinforced tin can.

There is nothing wrong with repurposing things but you are going to have to prove to me with more than just words that your average client can turn out a decent looking boat that's capable of withstanding the abuse you seem to feel a boat needs to be able to take at the price points you're talking about in the time frames you quote.

But honestly, after seeing how you react towards anybody that questions you on any point, I wouldn't trust my life to your designs without first getting a second and possibly third opinion elsewhere. And no, I'm not falling for your benevolent benefactor act either. It's all about Brent Swain.

Oh, and just to let you know, your decades old designs would probably be considered outdated.
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Last edited by Dean101; 01-21-2014 at 10:49 PM.
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  #3280  
Old 01-22-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
..............My posts are not about attracting potential clients, they are about informing would be boat builders what their options are, and that a steel boat doesn't have to be extremely time and money consuming, nor does it need a lot of expensive equipment nor expertise to build .
I offer a service to enable home builders to get into an inexpensive, good looking, very well proven steel boat, without taking ten years, or a kings ransom to get out cruising in. ..................
mmmm.......I think you spend a lot of time misinforming potential clients, also a lot of time talking down any professional design approach and even more time talking up Brent Swain's approach. Trouble is that there's a lot of hype and misrepresentation. A lot of this is dangerously misleading IMO because you are nearly exclusively indoctrinating neophytes who are not very aware of the nuances of boating.

Take your stability claims for instance, your 36 foot design is not a great offshore design given it's low stability figure ( small boats should have higher ultimate stability for offshore safety), unfortunately you have misrepresented the stability figures for decades. The opportunity you were given to actually verify the mid 130 degree AVS estimate still stands. And that's a definitive test. Why aren't you organizing that inclining test ? You can even be talked through it yourself. But you will continue to misrepresent that figure and you come up with a silly statements like the NA who offered to do it hides on an island and you don't like his designs.

Enrol for a course of boat design and learn the basics. maybe macnaughtongroup.com home page yacht design marine publishing liveaboard catalog harbor gallery yacht design school yacht brokerage you've already met Tom McNaughton , a very nice chap who can explain a lot to you. That's what an apprenticeship would have done, not indoctrinate you but teach you the basics of naval architecture regarding boat design.

Most of the people you sell your design to should never build a boat first up. They should be given the advice to go buy a used boat, any boat, and cruise and find their niche. They will be much better off financially and they'll get to know boats and boating. I'd never talk a newbie into building a boat ever, that is poor advice and smacks of self interest from your part.
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Last edited by MikeJohns; 01-22-2014 at 10:00 PM. Reason: removed "an"
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