Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 330 - SailNet Community
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post #3291 of 5317 Old 01-22-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Too funny but true. When the bride and went boat shopping we would lie on the berths, try to wedge in every corner, alternate opening lockers and drawers. We would try to find sight lines from all spots in the cockpits. Some brokers would smile with understanding others ( mostly French boat dealers) would frown and try to move us along. She's 4'10" and I'm 6'. Doesn't make a lot of sense to build or buy a boat that doesn't fit but some do.
A couple of years ago at the Annapolis boat show I went on the Xp-38, and immediately plopped myself down at the wheel, moving around to simulate positions as if sailing. The broker onboard said I was the first person that day to do that. I guess almost everyone heads down below first instead.......
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post #3292 of 5317 Old 01-22-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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post #3293 of 5317 Old 01-22-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I've had the deck to myself on every boat I've ever been on at a boat show. I'd always head for the rig and the bow - everybody else went directly below every time.

That fact is what makes contemporary boats what they are.
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I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #3294 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Too funny but true. When the bride and went boat shopping we would lie on the berths, try to wedge in every corner, alternate opening lockers and drawers. We would try to find sight lines from all spots in the cockpits. Some brokers would smile with understanding others ( mostly French boat dealers) would frown and try to move us along. She's 4'10" and I'm 6'. Doesn't make a lot of sense to build or buy a boat that doesn't fit but some do.
Sounds like the Admiral and I are similar dimensions you and yours:

Our boat has a doghouse with 6'6" headroom whilst the remainder of the cabin is only 5'6". It does peeve me somewhat that she can move about comfortably below decks anywhere she likes - but then I remember a famous NA from yesteryear quoted as saying something like "if you want to stand up, go on deck!"... and then I put on my bump-cap and think about something else.

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"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"

Last edited by Classic30; 01-23-2014 at 12:04 AM.
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post #3295 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Mstern:
I think the Yamahas were designed by an in house design team.

Years ago two Japanese guys in suits showed up at my office. They were designers from Yamaha. They spoke very little English. I welcomed them and showed them some of my own design work.

After some awkward silence as we looked over my drawings, one of the guys said, "Problem with American boats, not designed for human body." I looked at him. He was about 5'3" tall and I said, "Your's or mine?"
The boat sure does look like one of the old Quarter Tonners. My (lame) joke had to do with the original comment that it was a "Yamaha 26 Quarter Pounder". Perhaps the author was hungry when making that post?
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post #3296 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quarter Pounder is a long standing term of affection for the old Quarter Tonners.

The other Ton classes get similar treatment (1/2 Pounder etc.) but it works best on the Quarter Tonners.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #3297 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Thanks Jon. I never heard that Quarter Pounder term before. I'd like to think its because I was too young during the IOR era to pay attention to that stuff! I was exclusively on Sunfish and Sailfish back then and mostly concerned about water temperature and being able to pull the capsized boat back over.
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post #3298 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
Sounds like the Admiral and I are similar dimensions you and yours:

Our boat has a doghouse with 6'6" headroom whilst the remainder of the cabin is only 5'6". It does peeve me somewhat that she can move about comfortably below decks anywhere she likes - but then I remember a famous NA from yesteryear quoted as saying something like "if you want to stand up, go on deck!"... and then I put on my bump-cap and think about something else.
I heart similar dense comments from famous NAs from today. Many don't know what year round sailing is, having only fair weather experience, if any.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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post #3299 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Brent,

Most of your designs seem to have been designed a long time ago, but seem to attract some people still. I can understand to a degree that you concentrate only on the Origami approach, and I can understand a low key lifestyle. In looking at various pictures of your boats, there seem to be a number of different designs, but nothing having been designed recently. Why and when did Brent stop designing boats? It seems odd there were a number of designs, then there appears to be nothing lately.
The boats I have designed will fill the needs of most cruisers. People have made some variations, like Steve's centre cockpit , different wheelhouse shapes, twin or single keel, etc. I can't see any point in the micro market. I design only what I believe in, which is why I don't design anything over 40 feet. I also prefer to refine them over decades, with the input of owners who put many ocean crossings under them. Calculations for a new boat are no match for decades of cruising input and feedback, when it comes to seamanship and reliability.
A friend told me of his German friend ,who was circumnavigating in his 28 footer. People would say "Your boat's to small." To which he would reply "No your ego is too big."

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post #3300 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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The people I see criticizing you are including statements that can be verified. They are citing scientific theory that is widely known and accepted. They are not spouting contradictory statements and backing it up by repeating your endless experience with cruising, designing, and building steel boats. They are posting pictures of their work while you keep talking. The only option I've seen you share is origami steel done your way. Everything else is either infinitely inferior, too expensive, or seriously outdated.

Certainly your method is an option and yes, steel is a seriously tough material. I haven't seen anyone dispute that. What I have seen is people with engineering and/or design experience question your claims or ask you to back up those claims with tangible proof and all you do is tell them they don't know anything because they have zero experience with steel. I'm very interested in options and definitely interested in saving money, but quite frankly, I want a boat that looks good. What I don't want are mismatched portlights because the local salvage shop had 3 of these and 5 of those. I want a winch that works dependably and wont abrade a line rather than some old transmission gears cobbled up in a reinforced tin can.

There is nothing wrong with repurposing things but you are going to have to prove to me with more than just words that your average client can turn out a decent looking boat that's capable of withstanding the abuse you seem to feel a boat needs to be able to take at the price points you're talking about in the time frames you quote.

But honestly, after seeing how you react towards anybody that questions you on any point, I wouldn't trust my life to your designs without first getting a second and possibly third opinion elsewhere. And no, I'm not falling for your benevolent benefactor act either. It's all about Brent Swain.

Oh, and just to let you know, your decades old designs would probably be considered outdated.
Widely accepted scientific theory, until quite recently, said that bees were incapable of flying. Tell the bees that!
During my lifetime, it said that matter couldn't be destroyed. It said there a was no water on the moon, and that other stars didn't have any planets. Widely accepted "scientific theory" is constantly being disproven and revised. If it never was, we would still be stuck in the stone age.
Every bit of human progress involved going against the widely accepted ways of doing things, and thinking. Without doing so, we would still be stuck in the stone age.
You remind me of the foreman I once worked for, who told me "Invention is dead. Everything there is to invent, has already been invented."
That was in 1968! Has nothing been invented since then?
Yet some still make that claim today , as they have made it since the stone age
I have never used old gears or tin cans to build an anchor winch, nor advocated such. My current anchor rode is decades old, with no serious chafe problems.
And you call my posts misleading? Looks like the pot calling the kettle black.
Tangible proof is Silas Crosby, just returned from Cape Horn and the Aleutians, almost looking like she has just come out of the boatyard. Tangible proof are his comments on his boat. Tangible proof is Viski, having survived pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf, then being dragged by a tug across the same 300 yards of reef, with almost zero damage . Tangible proof is the 38 boats I have built, the roughly 38 Evan has built, the half dozen Ken Splett has built ,the many who have built their own, or hired others to hep build them, the circumnavigations and long offshore voyages over decades, all with zero structural damage of any kind. Tangible proof is the photos posted on BD.net of the first of my 36 footers pounding in up to12 ft surf for 16 days, with minimal damage. Tangible proof is Winston's single season passage thru the NW passage with zero dents or damage of any kind.
No, writing down a bunch of numbers doesn't prove anything . Ask investors in Briex, Nortel, AIG ,Bernie Made-Off's scam etc. how reliable a proof numbers gives one.
The photos of my boats on the origamiboats site are proof of how good looking most of them are. Don't see any mismatched port lights there, so again your post misleads.
Sounds like you are heading for a project which will take far more time with far lesser results than it need take. Go ahead, no skin off my ass. Just don't encourage others to be so naïve
Don't believe anything this guy posts!

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 01-24-2014 at 05:22 PM.
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