Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 331 - SailNet Community
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post #3301 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
mmmm.......I think you spend a lot of time misinforming potential clients, also a lot of time talking down any professional design approach and even more time talking up Brent Swain's approach. Trouble is that there's a lot of hype and misrepresentation. A lot of this is dangerously misleading IMO because you are nearly exclusively indoctrinating neophytes who are not very aware of the nuances of boating.

Take your stability claims for instance, your 36 foot design is not a great offshore design given it's low stability figure ( small boats should have higher ultimate stability for offshore safety), unfortunately you have misrepresented the stability figures for decades. The opportunity you were given to actually verify the mid 130 degree AVS estimate still stands. And that's a definitive test. Why aren't you organizing that inclining test ? You can even be talked through it yourself. But you will continue to misrepresent that figure and you come up with a silly statements like the NA who offered to do it hides on an island and you don't like his designs.

Enrol for a course of boat design and learn the basics. maybe macnaughtongroup.com home page yacht design marine publishing liveaboard catalog harbor gallery yacht design school yacht brokerage you've already met Tom McNaughton , a very nice chap who can explain a lot to you. That's what an apprenticeship would have done, not indoctrinate you but teach you the basics of naval architecture regarding boat design.

Most of the people you sell your design to should never build a boat first up. They should be given the advice to go buy a used boat, any boat, and cruise and find their niche. They will be much better off financially and they'll get to know boats and boating. I'd never talk a newbie into building a boat ever, that is poor advice and smacks of self interest from your part.
Tad Roberts calculated the ultimate stability of my 36 at 165 degrees, which he posted on BD.net. Jim, the Russian computer whizz, calculated it on his computer, and came up with 175 degrees, which he posed on the origamiboats site.
An inclining test at the dock has absolutely nothing to do with ultimate stability. The buoyancy of deck structures has a major role in that , and how can that be determined by slightly inclining a boat at the dock, without getting them wet?

Which means no one should believe anything you post, from this point on!

I always advise people to buy a used boat, to gain experience, except those who have already done that, and concluded, rightly, that the only way to get a good one, is to build it themselves. The rest arrive at the same conclusion later, after freezing under the inevitable deck leaks in plastic boats, or having the crap scared out of them in boats which couldn't survive a good bump on a rock or log boom. All have said that upgrading to one of my boats has been a huge improvement. Winston, with his vast experience, is on his 3rd brentboat, and his daughter just went south in one. How does that compare to your personal, hands on experience in cruising and crossing oceans in a brentboat?
McNaughton is incapable of comprehending the effect of shape on stiffness and strength. My discussion of that with him went right over his head.
Winston built his first brentboat after completing a circumnavigation , no neophyte, probably far less of one than you. After owning two brentboats , circumnavigating the Pacific in one, and sailing thru the NW passage in his second, he chose a brentboat for his third. His daughter, who grew up circumnavigating with her father, and after sailing from BC to new Zealand and back, just headed south in a brentboat, again, no neophyte. Steve built Silas Crosby after sailing his Spencer 35 to New Zealand and back, no neophyte . Roger built his first brentboat after sailing his first boat to Tahiti and back to BC, again no neophyte. Ken built his first brentboat after sailing his first boat to Kiribati.

I don't believe modern trendiness has created any better cruising boats, from a practical standpoint .In fact, I believe they are not as good as some older designs. I have watched mains become small and jibs huge ,then go back the other way, and each time it was hailed as the most modern improvement ,anything else was outdated. Bendy masts were consider the only way to win a race, until the Kiwis kicked ass with a super stiff one.
Following trends blindly can be a suckers game!

Don't believe anything Mike posts!

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 01-24-2014 at 05:18 PM.
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post #3302 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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I'm going to puke. Why let a pension you didn't earn ruin that low cost lifestyle you love? Ah, yes, you're greedy - just like all those "treadmillers" you think you're better than.

"Women's shelters" funded by BS.



Good lord you have no bounds.
And you would turn down a government pension? Ya ,sure you would!

I charge $30 an hour, charge $350 for a set of plans, and your hero charges $150 an hour, and $14,000 for a set of plans, and expects his clients to buy him a swimming pool, and you call me greedy?
Ya sure , Steve!

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

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post #3303 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Mstern:
I think the Yamahas were designed by an in house design team.

Years ago two Japanese guys in suits showed up at my office. They were designers from Yamaha. They spoke very little English. I welcomed them and showed them some of my own design work.

After some awkward silence as we looked over my drawings, one of the guys said, "Problem with American boats, not designed for human body." I looked at him. He was about 5'3" tall and I said, "Your's or mine?"
They'd love Colvin's designs. Their interiors are mostly closet like crawl spaces.
I used to fit a size 11 shoe. My feet haven't grown since then. Now I take a size 13 and it barely fits. They just can't believe anyone could have such huge feet ,so they make them smaller.
Reminds me of the handle they put in their cars, which whack you in the side of the head with every bump on a bumpy road. It goes over their heads.
Different ergonomics for different folks!

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

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post #3304 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"I heart similar dense comments from famous NAs from today. Many don't know what year round sailing is, having only fair weather experience, if any. "

Boy BS you are really angry tonight. You are not typing well either. Maybe put the bottle down. You are seimi coherant. I understand.

You are way too defensive about your problem with math. It's your problem, own it. You have a real problem with basic math and how it applies to yacht design. Pathetic is the word that comes to mind. Quit pretending.

You are babbling tonight. Probably better you just go to bed. You sound drunk. Sorry but you are really not making any coherant sense. You are making more desperate defensive statements.

Nighty night BS. You will have to tuck yourself in, again.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


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post #3305 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
And you would turn down a government pension? Ya ,sure you would!
Then stop all the self-righteous "I am making all the money I need with my low cost lifestyle, which I love, and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world" crap.

Even according to you, that's obviously a lie. As you just said, you'll trade your lovable poverty in a heartbeat for government money you don't deserve.

It's becoming painfully obvious you just had no other options.

PS - Thanks for breaking the shoe size conspiracy wide open. I knew they were up to something.


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post #3306 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"I heart similar dense comments from famous NAs from today. Many don't know what year round sailing is, having only fair weather experience, if any. "

Boy BS you are really angry tonight. You are not typing well either. Maybe put the bottle down. You are seimi coherant. I understand.

You are way too defensive about your problem with math. It's your problem, own it. You have a real problem with basic math and how it applies to yacht design. Pathetic is the word that comes to mind. Quit pretending.

You are babbling tonight. Probably better you just go to bed. You sound drunk. Sorry but you are really not making any coherant sense. You are making more desperate defensive statements.

Nighty night BS. You will have to tuck yourself in, again.
Last alcohol I drank was one glass of wine at Xmas . How much have you gone thru since then?
Again , Bob defines "angry" as anyone who disagrees with him. Yes, I fit that definition, and am proud of it. I don't think you would find many people who define "angry" as "Anyone who disagrees with Bob Perry." (Or Steve, for that matter.)
No, you guys are simply not that important , nor significant .
I see a lot of people who are whizz kids with math, who are totally useless with any other form of logic. That which they cant convert into numbers, they are completely incapable of comprehending.

I'm having a blast, shooting you sitting ducks off your fence!

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"I'm having a blast, shooting you sitting ducks off your fence! "

You are a very bad shot Brent.

But you are fun.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

You guys are complete flops when it come to understanding the most basic logic, which makes you fun.
Thanks for the entertainment!

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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You guys are complete flops when it come to understanding the most basic logic, which makes you fun.
Thanks for the entertainment!
My pleasure. Really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I charge $30 an hour, charge $350 for a set of plans, and your hero charges $150 an hour, and $14,000 for a set of plans, and expects his clients to buy him a swimming pool, and you call me greedy?
Ya sure , Steve!
Yes Brent, you're greedy. You love money. You'll do anything to get as much as you can (pose as an aboriginal, pose as Nordic royalty, pose as a contributing citizen who "deserves" a pension - whatever it takes to score some juice). And I'm not making this stuff up - this is what you've said over and over in this thread.

But - see, being greedy wouldn't be all that bad if that were the end of it. You're not only greedy, you're bitter and envious. How do I know? Look at the above. Just because you make $120/hour less than Bob doesn't make you "better" than Bob. It just means your work has far less value and less demand than his. This is the simple truth.

You've just stated above that if you could earn more you would. But you can't, Brent. Not because you're valiantly "choosing not to". You just can't. Bob, however, can...and does. And he doesn't need to milk the government or anyone else to enjoy his pool. His work that people are willing to pay handsomely for bought the pool. Your work bought you some ice cream. Nothing wrong with that. And no one around here holds that against you. But you hold it against Bob.

You should be happy for Bob - and learn from him, not just attack and insult him. You should congratulate him on his success. It's not greed. It's success. You can't understand the difference between the two - mainly because you're clearly greedy, but not successful.


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post #3310 of 5317 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Here I am on the beach in Thailand and if it weren't for prose an cons I'd have no entertainment at all. As for my thoughts on Yamahas my only experience has been to pull them in off the salish sea as they tend to fill their engines with salt water in any bit of following sea.
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