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  #3331  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
The first origami boat I built had a chine running full length. On the second one we eliminated the chine in the bow , by welding the bottom plate to the topside plate, before pulling it together. On the second one we eliminated the chine at both ends, by cutting the bottom plate in half and welding each half to the topside plate, before pulling it together. Then we started using 8 by 36 ft plates , eliminating this seam and 32 feet of matching and welding in the process. Then we began welding bulwark pipes and longitudinal stringers on while the plate was flat on the ground, and welding all deck beams and stringers on, on a work bench, before installing them, eliminating a lot of overhead welding. I cringe when I se people advocating still dong this welding overhead, in place, when it is so unnecessary,(unless you like that kind of hot shower) Then more clients started using stainless sch 40 pipe for bulwark caps, eliminating a lot of maintenance. We switched to using zinc rich cold galvanizing primer, to eliminate the need for sandblasting. My boat was done that way, and after 29 years 95% of the paint is as good as the day I put it on. Then we began using the centreline as tankage, most of the tankage already being there, in the form of the hull bottom. This gave us a triangulated, super strong point to attach the keel supports to, where the tank top meets the hull plate, both well curved. Then we went for 3x3x1/2 inch angles from the chine to this solid point for keel supports.
We put a small window in the top of the tanks, so one could at any time, lift the floor boards, and see right to the bottom of the tanks.
We turned the back of the single keel into a 70 gallon diesel tank, with a similar window in top.
I started putting a small window by the forepeak bunk which allows you to see outside while laying in your bunk, and enabling you to see if you are dragging anchor or not, b y simply opening one eye.
So basically you're saying that totally guessing at everything you're doing, seeing that you've completely screwed it up when it fails its first test, then going back and guessing again, screwing it up again, over and over and over - is better than science?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Widely accepted "scientific theory" is constantly being disproven and revised. If it never was, we would still be stuck in the stone age.
Every bit of human progress involved going against the widely accepted ways of doing things, and thinking. Without doing so, we would still be stuck in the stone age.
Yes but that only works if the human involved actually gets it right eventually. Otherwise, we are still stuck in the steel age.

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Compulsive liars, all too often, have cost people their cruising dreams, and too much of their freedom!
Have you seen this thread:

BS Yachts Marketing Program
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  #3332  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by djodenda View Post
In the mid-sixties, my father, a machinist at General Motors, was able to buy, maintain, and sail a boat (Shark 24) large enough to take my mother and us 4 kids for weekend sails in Michigan.

It was something he could afford to do, and maintain the boat without special skills!

We are all lucky to live in such a time.
If a machinist doesn't have "special skills", who does? Machinists and until recently, patternmakers, are the royalty of skilled trades. Rapid prototyping is pretty well sending pattermakers the way of draftsmen but machinists still need to do the really specialized stuff that robots can't.

Bill Garden once wrote "All our boats are toy boats, merely the glint on a lovely, brief bubble of time, a time of leisure for the masses".

I think that described it perfectly.
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  #3333  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
You certainly have a eye. Both that red boat and the new version of the outbound look to have beautiful form with I expect great function. Self love is better than self hate as long as your not self centered. Go have a nice glass of wine with your swimmies on in your heated pool.
Hey, none of that self loving in the pool!
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  #3334  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
The thought of growing up to draw butt ugly, crude boats never entered my mind.

Kids think weird things.
Not at all. That fits exactly with a psychological study I read years ago. In it they described how successful people, as children, never doubted that they would be successful - the thought of failing at life simply never entered their minds.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
$39,500? Might sell for $29,000. Not too bad a looking boat.
Except for that odd little penthouse on the cabintop.
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  #3336  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Nice post Paulo.
I was feeling down tonight and you raised my spirits
I thank you for that..
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  #3337  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
You keep saying this, you even said it to Tad himself and his reply is here: Swain BS_36 Stability curve - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums (where you are posting as Jack Hickson).

.
Mike, I'm glad you posted this. After reading some of the posts on that forum, it looks like even Brent's peers in steel design and building have concerns about his claims. Looks like he pulled the same stunts over there as he has been doing here. He's lost nearly all credibility with me (good ideas regarding steel maintenance excluded) and comes off like a used car salesman.
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  #3338  
Old 01-25-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
Mike, I'm glad you posted this. After reading some of the posts on that forum, it looks like even Brent's peers in steel design and building have concerns about his claims. Looks like he pulled the same stunts over there as he has been doing here. He's lost nearly all credibility with me (good ideas regarding steel maintenance excluded) and comes off like a used car salesman.
The many Engineers/NA’s etc on the boat design site told Brent he was out of his tree when he tried to tell them his engineering knowledge went over their heads. When he started telling them they were too dim to understand his engineering arguments he had his credularity adjusted to untrustworthy.

He came back under the alias Jack Hickson and had the same happen again.

Then he posted earlier in this thread the dishonest statements:………..

That the folks on BD net attacked him because he identifies as Canadian Aboriginal…..
That the Coast Guard posted on BD net on his behalf and were attacked……
That Dudly Dix emailed him that he’d been attacked on BD net as well……
That Dix’s SA builder, Wynand was a self proclaimed racist …….
That I said shape has no affect on stiffness……. etc

Just endless BS on and on and on I could quote screeds of it.

The even sillier claims he’s made are even funny. For example that his boats can break their way through 3 feet of solid ice ……. That his boats are ultimately stable to 182 degrees……..( that’s a beauty). That they can T bone a high sided barge at hull speed with no damage, that they can pound in surf for days on end without damage, Pound over reefs, get hit by ships and bounce back for more unscathed.

He says they do all this because he’s discovered an unknown engineering structural method called pre-compression. Most people understand pre-tension makes things stronger but Brent doesn’t hold with that. His proof that it works is the collection of tales of incredible duress....... no other proof is necessary ( like a simple test, or an FEA model ) and anyone questioning this is simply too stupid to understand. Or science of engineering is likened to silly statements about bumble bees flight models or inoculations or something equally obscure. Or the engineer has an honesty problem.

None of the hyped up tales is ever validated, they are always just 2nd hand tale from Brent that often changes significantly with each telling. Or someone else’s tall tale. They have become urban myth in the origami marketing network but there is little or even no truth behind many of the claims. But they are the very validation Brent cites that his method is stronger than anyone else's method. He then proclaims that other designers are corrupt and out to rob their clients with outdated complex engineering and time consuming construction methods. So it gets into some serious misrepresentation and misinformation.

The worst is that his designs are not only apparently dangerously unstable sea boats, they are also weaker than they need to be for the addition of a very small amount of material. But no amount of offer of help ( free help) to improve his designs helps, if you try and tell him that a part is poorly designed and will probably fail Brent just attacks the person offering, calls them names and misquotes what they said.

Brent’s response is to actively vilify anyone who disagrees with him, they are either too dense to understand or are simply liars. And then he makes up a few more handy facts to valid his claim that they are afflicted with a tendency for dishonesty and or stupidity. He’s tried it with me in this thread. Instead of a discussion he attempts to force the exchange into the equivalent of a bar room brawl.
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Last edited by MikeJohns; 01-27-2014 at 06:27 PM.
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  #3339  
Old 01-25-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Mike me too. I'm glad you posted that link to the BD site and the BS thread. I did not read it all but I read a few pages. Those guys are brutal on BS.

A few things struck me:

Some of the guys posting there really know naval architecture
The thread was from 2004. Does BS never learn?
Claiming 175 degree LPS is ridiculous. BS simply doesn't understand stability as also evidenced by his total missunderstanding of why Tad wanted to do an incline test.
So, for at least 10 years BS has been posting the same crap. I'm amazed. The poor guy is either incapable of learning or he chooses not to learn. Either way it's sad.
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  #3340  
Old 01-25-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
...
The worst is that his designs are not only apparently dangerously unstable sea boats, ....
Why do you say this? It is true that stability curve makes no sense but a value of about 130º or even superior for an AVS is pretty good, the hull design has nothing new or interesting but it seems adequate to me and the boats are heavy contributing for the overall stability. Besides they sailed extensively offshore with a good proven record regarding seaworthiness.

So, why do you find them dangerously unstable?

Regards

Paulo
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