Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 340 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1722Likes
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #3391  
Old 01-27-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,780
Thanks: 1
Thanked 77 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent or should I say "Jack" you are a hoot a minute.

Of course asymetrical tandem keels are slow. One keel is always wrong!

"I started out with asymmetrical keels."
You actually built a boat with asym tandem keels? Amazing.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Quick reply to this message
  #3392  
Old 01-27-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,186
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I see very little storage space above the centre of buoyancy on most cruising boats. All weight stored below the centre of buoyancy is ballast albeit, less effective than ballast at the bottom of the keel, but never the less, adding to self righting ability in the event of a rollover, as long as it stays in its lockers. All my storage can be locked in, in ways that it wouldn't come out in a rollover . When my boats have been cruising for decades, from Cape Horn to the Aleutians, and several circumnavigations, with zero stability problems, its a bit of a stretch to claim that they will suddenly start to have stability problems, by decree, from those who have absolutely zero experience on any of my boats , and minimal cruising experience, or steel boat cruising experience of any kind.
....
I did not have said that your 36ft had stability problems however you make odd statements regarding the location of the center of buoyancy on modern cruising boats. How can most of the load be above the center of buoyancy?

That happened on old sailing ships, like this XVI century one (for the ones that don't know B is the Center of Buoyancy):



Lots of storage space under the CB. The load was used as ballast.

On a modern one, with the ballast outside the hull the CB is pretty low and the storage space below almost nonexistent:



Do you really think that on modern sailboats "there is very little storage space above the centre of buoyancy"?

Regards

Paulo
bobperry likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 01-27-2014 at 06:09 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3393  
Old 01-27-2014
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,374
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
That's a crock!
" I see very little storage space above the centre of buoyancy on most cruising boats"
What a ridiculous statement!

The center of bouyancy of any "normal" sailboat is below the DWL It has to be.
I checked quickly two of my moderate designs. One had a VCB of -.92' and the other a VCB of -.94'. So, let's round it off and say for a 40' to 50' boat the VCB will be about 1' below the DWL. Think about that. There is really not much boat left below that. It's a wedge. How the hell can most of your stowage be below the VCB? Essentially we are talking about the bilge. You can get some tankage in the bilge and that's a good way to lower the VCG. But given the VCG of a "normal" cruising boat is usually around the DWL or slightly above and this bilge weight is not very effective at lowering the VCG. There is just not enough arm to the moment. Fifty gallons of fuel weighs 362 lbs.. Sure it helps lower the VCG but by very much. Generally gear will, propbably not have the weight of fuel so even if you do pack your bilge with stowage material you will still not lower the VCG appreciably.

Brent talks about "lockers". Are these bilge lockers? Again he is wrong. In a normal cruising boat almost all the good stowage volume is above the DWL. That's where the available volume is. Once you get below the DWL there is simply not enough boat left for it to be where you stow the bulk of your gear.

I never suggested BS boats had a stability problem. Don't put me in that camp. Given their weight and general shape I think they would have reasonable LPS. Certainly not the 175 degs that BS claims. That is just plain silly. But I can see a LPS for the BS 36 around 130 degs maybe as high as 135 degs, maybe. (I prefer LPS, limit of positive stability.)

I don't have a problem with the reality of the stability of BS boats. I have a problem with BS's efforts to discuss stability at all. The boats are ok. He's very confused and ignorant on the subject.

If I was going to pick on the stability of a BS 36'er I'd estimate that their initial stability, that is their Rm's through the first 20 degrees is very low. Without lead ballast and steel construction the VCG of the boat will be high to begin with and given their high deadrise shape and moderate beam you have a recipe for an initially tender boat. This is not theory or opinion. This is just physics and naval architecture. This does two things: It makes the boats very tender initially. This makes for a boat that is not much fun to sail as you have to reduce sail quickly when you get some breeze. The boat is always on it's ear. But the good news is that with low initial stability you get a nice comfy ride. You'll roll but you'll roll slowly. This is a good trait foir an offshore boat so long as you don't mind a tender boat. For most of us who are not intendind any long offshore passages the initially stiff boaty will certainly be a faster boat that can carry it's sail well and not require reefing until you have more than 20 TWS. Face it, people like stiff boats.



This photo must rip your heart out Brent or should I call you "Jack"?
Below the centre of buoyancy where ? Upright, or inverted 180 degrees? Two radically different centres of buoyancy . When we are talking about ultimate stability, it is the inverted 180 degrees one which counts.
Sailing along side plastic boats of similar size, their angle of heel is about the same.
All my boats use lead ballast.
All my boats are designed to be offshore capable. I don't design or build fragile, sheltered water only, nautical fluff.They are designed to fill the needs of 95% of the cruisers I have met, in nearly 40 years of cruising. As for the other 5%, I'm not interested in the micro market. Any old boat will fill their needs
Bob (Jethro) you are welcome to that market.
Most of my storage is below the waterline. Lots of room there ( on heavier boats with deadrise, not on shallow, peanut shell bedpans) Above the waterline, she is wide open space.

My favorite photo is of a whole fleet of my boats in Cabo, belonging to people who couldn't afford to be there in such good steel boats, without my help. Your photo couldn't hold a candle to that one .
Nice looking boat, if you ignore the need for such a huge crew to sail her. That looks downright ugly! I imagine the costs are even uglier!

Last edited by Brent Swain; 01-27-2014 at 06:24 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3394  
Old 01-27-2014
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,374
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So you're saying Norm Moore, of the Western Australian Legeslative Council, is a Luddite Neanderthal?

Does he know that?
I'm sure there are many Norm Moores in the world . Typically, Smack takes things out of context any time he can, which deletes his credibility in any of his posts, such as taking a quote from me out of a discussion on religion, and posting it as a comment on steel boats, or leaving out the context in many of his "Quotes."
Don't believe anything he posts.
Quick reply to this message
  #3395  
Old 01-27-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,780
Thanks: 1
Thanked 77 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

My reference to "jack" was pertaining to your sock puppet identity on the BD forum. I haved no idea whio "jethro" is.

Ok I get it. You were talking inverted? Right. You talk nonsense.
"Two radically different centres of buoyancy "?
There is one VCB. There can only be one on a monohull. It changes as the boat heels and that's what creates the righting arm. It is always moving if the boat is moving.

" Such a huge crew tio sail it"?
You mean a husband, a wife, a 12 year old and a 14 year old? You talk nonsense.

__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Quick reply to this message
  #3396  
Old 01-27-2014
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,374
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
Sorry Brent, I assumed you would understand what a hypothetical scenario was. My bad. No, I'm not going to believe you, I'm not going to hunt for the information, and no, I'm not going to build a boat. If you want to actually back up anything you have to say, then you post it since you have been quoting it so much. Hoorah for you! You can weld faster than the Moore's. That's saying a lot. But until you quit blowing hot air and actually start posting some things that put substance in your gas, I'll just keep laughing at the funny smell.
Do a search under origamiboats and pick the first one ( Yahoo groups ) .Its all there.
Too lazy to do that? Your problem! So much for your credibility!
Moore posted the information and the site . He didn't build the boat. Go back and read the post again, as any times as it takes to sink in.( that could take a while)
Another dyslexic , just like Smack. No wonder you guys get along so well!
Quick reply to this message
  #3397  
Old 01-27-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,780
Thanks: 1
Thanked 77 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent given your posts and your consistant BS here you are not exactly the King of Credibility.
After being humiliated for years on the BD forum you still have learned the basics of design.
My favorite quote from the Boat Design forum:
"Your boats are extremely ugly and an insult to steel boats in general - geez, that ugly slit and corner at the bottom:eek"

I have yet to see you post one of your own drawings.


On it's lines, looking good and making the owner happy. Asymeytrical daggerboards. My only cruising cat.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 01-27-2014 at 06:57 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3398  
Old 01-27-2014
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hobart
Posts: 80
Thanks: 4
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 7
MikeJohns is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I see very little storage space above the centre of buoyancy on most cruising boats. All weight stored below the centre of buoyancy is ballast .........
where do you think the CB is ? This is why you should learn some basic boat design. It's down in the volumetric center of the immersed part of the vessel.

There's only the lower half of your bilge to store stuff in according to you !

Items that lower the CG (that is well fixed below the CG) increase the righting moment sure but most storage is above the CG.

This is what a weights and moments study shows you clearly. And we juggle that study carefully to get both a decent Dellenbaugh angle and an acceptable Static limit of Postive Stability. it's also useful for calculating the natural roll period using radius of gyration. Amazing what math can give you

Also as I explained earlier you should not include the mast bouyancy, the stats show that masts are lost in a violent inversion, water is so much more viscous than air.
If you want to include mast buoyancy you need to show that the mast is so over engineered it would survive. That's improbable.

Monohull inversion is usually a violent process which has much more to do with the energy in a water jet from a breaking wave than any other factor. Most boats will never experience this even in severe storms if they are well handled. This is why anecdotes don't cut any mustard.
To say a boat weathered a storm and had no problem is not very sensible design assesment, it's part sea state and wave characteristics and a lottery of what wave is encountered when, and part skill in avoiding or reducing those encounters. Most people will have a storm and never encounter a dangerous breaking wave. But as the boat size goes down the risk increases considerably.

But even if it's uncommon, offshore boats should be designed to lessen the risk since inversion is a very dangerous occurrence. All the deck load, solar panels wind generators, radars, anchoring gear and even often raised sails decrease the stability from the figures given. There is also a wind heeling moment that further decreases stability. Cruisers also often dangerously overload small boats with containers of fuel on deck. And the boats are often well below their design lines.

The given stability figures are a guide to the vessels operators as to just how they handle the boat.
For example is it safe to heave-to or should I run and have crew on the helm, or try and run under autopilot, can I fit a radome half way up the mast, should I put my anchors and chain in the keel before the storm.........and so on. It's the best most important information you can give any mariner. In the commercial world it's all spelled out in great detail with a stability book, which explains what you can put where within your draft markings ( total D).

To tell people the boat is ultimately stable with silly figures that make the boat and designer look good is criminal IMO.
bobperry likes this.
Quick reply to this message
  #3399  
Old 01-27-2014
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,374
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I just had another read thru Smack's long diatribe. Hell hath no confusion like a dyslexic on a forum!
Who gives a rats ass about a bit of paint on welded on stainless handrails ? What Smack prefers is a flimsy , leaky, bolted down teak handrail, like the ones on his Catalina; style over substance. Mine can easily be used to vang the mainsail down and tie things onto , something which would quickly rip out his teak ,decorative ones. It would take me less then 5 minutes with an angle grinder with a buffing wheel on ,to make them as shiny as any , but that is not my priority. Why would it be? I go by cruiser priorities ,not marina queen priorities. Why would a free cruiser give a rats ass about an armchair critic, who knows little about cruising boat priorities? Some one dense enough to believe the blocks in the photos are not as strong as the commercially made ,plastic decorative priority blocks he advocates , someone dense enough to believe that the 3/16tgh shackles on a commercially made blocks are stronger than the 3/8th inch shackle or the1 1/4 inch wide by 3/16th aluminium becket on the one in the photo?
As someone pointed out on another site, Smack would be able to sabotage any test he did on anything, and given his basic dishonesty, (quotes constantly being taken out of context, words added ,left out, etc) it would be inevitable!
Vendi globe boats have twin rudders huge difference.
The weakness and distortion of Smacks arguments is demonstrated by the way he has to keep harping on about a typo.
He claims that lifelines must be 36 inches high , but his hero, Bob's Passport 47 has 31 inch lifelines. Some of Bob's boats have 24 inch lifelines. No solid top rails like mine , only trip wires.
Bob claims not to have designed the Reliance 37? That's was the name on Malcolm's drawings . I guess denial is one way to avoid responsibility. It worked, for some people, on the aluminium boat too. Appears to be a pattern forming!

Smack is implying that plastic thru hulls are stronger , unlike the fully welded in sch 40 stainless pipe nipples I use!
Without ever having seen one of my boats, Smack claims that most of the ones he has seen are for sale. Dyslexia again?
I can count on one hand the boats of my design which have come up for sale in the last ten years . Some are constantly being harassed by people wanting to by their brentboats which are not for sale .
You still haven't explained how you get a ball of kelp or a fishnet off a spade rudder in rough water at sea at night. Mine slide right over them without fouling anything .That is a far safer and thus stronger arrangement for a cruising boat.
Smack claims that a white poly pipe would not be in any worse shape after 36 years in the sun? So much for his credibility!
Scrap stainless for a wind vane would not cost anyone else any more than it did me.
Smack confuses the life expectancy of halyards with that of sheets . Sheets are not halyards. Ask someone who has a clue about sailing, to explain the difference to you ,Smack.
I first hit a Fijian Reef in my cement boat and lost her in conditions which would not have even damaged a steel boat. Viski hit while leaving Suva on her circumnavigation, with minimal damage, mostly lost paint .Wong never hit a Fijian reef . Your dyslexia is acting up again. Smack.
Wong hit in the Balerics and in Panama .

Wong is a far bigger boat than mine, or a36. I have no idea how he painted her initially . I was in Mexico at the time.
I estimate that over 905% of the boats built to my designs are sailing g within a short time . A Texan from Hicksville Texas claims to know more about the subject, without ever having seen one of my boats, than I do. Who do you believe ? Check out the photos section on the origamiboats site for more info.
Wont look because you don't want to see the answer? Your problem!
With the aging population and the aging of old boats with perfectly good gear we are awash in sailing gear, in excellent conditions, and the supply is growing daily . Boats are being ground up for concrete reinforcement . Any one can find good deals on gear.
Plans for my 36 are $350 . Smack calculates the cost of plans , book and DVD at $425. Winston did that, and got sailing for around $35,000.
For that, his hero Bob Perry, will sell you a set of plans . Then, instead of a boat in sailing condition, ready to live aboard, you have a pile of paper, advice on how to put together a steel boat ,by someone who has never done it himself , decisions on what is right for a steel cruising boat, from someone who has never cruised extensively in a steel boat, who has stated that he just draws his pictures which ever way his whims take him , not giving a rat's ass how expensive an difficult it is to build.

Smack says, then you have plans from one of the worlds most prominant designers . You forgot one important part. He is no doubt one of the worlds best "PLASTIC" boat designers, without a doubt. He knows next to nothing about steel , having almost zero hands on experience in working with the material, building with ,or maintaining it.
Having the world's best PLASTIC boat designer, with almost zero knowledge about steel, design a steel boat, is like having the worlds best hockey player do your open heart surgery, as he is recognized around the world as being one of the best!
No, Wayne Gretsky ,you are not getting your slapshot anywhere near my ticker!
The ship which hit the Sleavins boat had the bluntest bow I have ever seen on a freighter. Trying to get that to punch a hole in 3/16th steel plate would be like trying to get it to punch a hole in a floating beer can .Is anyone dense enough to believe a floating beer can would be holed by that bow? The inertia in the beer can is simply not enough. Ditto a 36 ft hull with 3/16th plate.
The comment about wooden guns was a reaction to the ludicrous claim that wood is stronger than steel. Again,
Smack left out the context to distort the quote. Another reason to not believe anything he posts .

Early on in this debate Bob started spiting out Karate terms. Karate is a good metaphor for something being theorized into complete uselessness. I wasted a couple of years on that crap in my early 20's before I switched to boxing, which was far more connected to reality. I remember my trainer, a former world kick boxing champion giving a kid a few lessons for a Taequando tournament . 20 years later I watched a guy with only six weeks boxing training , kick his ass easily.

Wile 30 year old prices are not the same , the gap between steel and fibreglass prices are even wider.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 01-28-2014 at 06:33 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3400  
Old 01-27-2014
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,386
Thanks: 92
Thanked 92 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Typically, Smack takes things out of context any time he can, which deletes his credibility in any of his posts, such as taking a quote from me out of a discussion on religion, and posting it as a comment on steel boats, or leaving out the context in many of his "Quotes."
Don't believe anything he posts.
Now Brent, baby, we've been through this. Every bit of the context is there in the BSYMP thread...

CHECK IT!

You just have to click on the little blue arrow by each post, just as I state in the thread. As you say...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Its all there.
Too lazy to do that? Your problem! So much for your credibility! Go back and read the post again, as any times as it takes to sink in.( that could take a while)
And this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
We use a 6 inch tube with a wall thickness of 11 gauge, roughly a third the weight of the pipe your calculations are based on.
Shows how jumping to confusions can give a grossly distorted picture
So your mast will break much more easily in a roll, thereby proving MikeJohns correct. Cool.

Yes, you do show true commitment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"I started out with asymmetrical keels."
You actually built a boat with asym tandem keels? Amazing.
This is what BS means by years of hands-on experience being superior to actually knowing what you're doing. It's better than science!

St. Bernard Swain, you're dogged determination to continually make a fool of yourself is truly admirable.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-27-2014 at 08:33 PM.
Quick reply to this message
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hunter 36 Pros and Cons? turfguy Hunter 15 08-25-2014 05:08 PM
C & C 24 pros and cons chuckg Boat Review and Purchase Forum 11 04-06-2012 12:45 AM
Pros and Cons of Catalina 350?? turfguy C350 6 10-16-2009 05:17 PM
Watermakers—Pros and Cons Tom Wood Cruising Articles 0 06-11-2002 08:00 PM
Steel Hulls—Pros and Cons Sue & Larry Buying a Boat Articles 0 09-12-2001 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:33 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.