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  #3411  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Do a search under origamiboats and pick the first one ( Yahoo groups ) .Its all there.
Too lazy to do that? Your problem! So much for your credibility!
Moore posted the information and the site . He didn't build the boat. Go back and read the post again, as any times as it takes to sink in.( that could take a while)
Another dyslexic , just like Smack. No wonder you guys get along so well!
Ok, Brent, I went ahead and did some of your work for you since you can't seem to grasp the concept of backing up your claims. If it's not to your liking, which I'm sure it won't be, then do your own dirty work like everybody else.

This forum https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/info is moderated by Brent Swain and Alex Christie. Since the last paragraph of the groups description details how to purchase DVD's from Christie and books from Swain, I do not consider this an unbiased resource.

This sight About Us - Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding is another front for your business. Again, not an unbiased resource.

I found a discussion of steel building methods on the Kaston Marine Design website. And Brent, before you go into a tirade about how they are promoting their own agenda or they are just infidels to your Godhood, the point here is that the write-up is NOT biased and fairly depicts the pro's and con's of each method. That is something you have not done here nor on any of your own websites. And that is why I do not believe in anything you have to say.
This is copy and pasted from the website Frames First or Plating First...?

"Within the "plate-first" approach, there are two main divisions:
• The "Pre-Cut-Plate" method as described above, and
• The "Folded-Plate" or so-called Origami method.

With the "Pre-Cut-Plate" approach, the plating is all planned for developability (curvature in one direction only, i.e. not saddle shaped or dome shaped). Here, the plating is all pre-cut, pulled into place - ordinarily over a mould or temporary supports - then stitched together along the seams. This is essentially the "plate-first" method described above.

Taking this pre-cut-plate approach one step farther, we have the "Folded Plate" or Origami method, whereby as many of the hull plate weld seams as possible are eliminated via an ingenious layout of the seams and a shape that allows there to be a number of "pre-joined" areas.

The advantage of the "Folded Plate" method is that with an accurately pre-planned outline that's cut out of plate, the entire hull plating can first be laid out flat - port and starboard - welded where necessary to create the sizes and shapes required, then it's all pulled together and stitched into place. Using this method, once the plate shapes have been determined, the hull plating can be erected in a very short time - often in a matter of days.

Of course this looks impressive...! It actually is impressive! Naturally this concept has captured the imagination of the amateur metal boat building community, thus a possibly significant contingent among potential owner-builders.

With the Folded Plate / Origami method however, one must realize that the designer is unfortunately extremely limited in terms of the possible hull shapes that will actually do this trick. Try it with paper cutouts and you will be immediately convinced. You can achieve a few minor variations and still get shapes that will fold together, but regional subtleties of hull form are just not possible. If a different type of hull form is desired, then quite a lot of trial and error time must be spent - usually by making actual trial cutouts and seeing if they will fit together in an attempt to discover a totally flat plate layout that will provide the intended shape when folded together.

This is not only a severe limitation on the designer - it also restricts the builder who may as a result have only one basic model to offer. In other words, variations to the hull shape are difficult and time consuming to create, so the vessels are limited to being either larger or smaller, fatter or more slender, taller or shorter, having more or less sheer, yet essentially the same in their general shape and appearance.

Further, it must be kept in mind that just as with the "pre-cut-plate" method, the "Folded-Plate" or Origami method is generally only applicable to the hull plating itself, and not to the keel, rudder, deck, superstructure, nor to the equipment, rig, joinery, systems, etc. In other words, though it should be accomplished as efficiently as possible, erecting the plating is only a small part of building the hull, and a very small part of the whole picture.

We therefore observe the following disadvantages of the "Origami" method:
• Only a limited portion of the total plate surface will be addressed by the Origami method;
• The variety of hull shapes that are possible both aesthetically and functionally are quite limited;
• There will be quite a lot of fussing around with trial shapes prior to achieving the desired result;
• There will still be internal framing... actually quite a lot of it in the form of girders, tank faces and tops, bulkheads, sole flats, deck beams, etc.

As a result of these factors, I have not been tempted to pursue the Origami approach in my design work.
Except for the initial "wow" factor, which holds a certain well deserved appeal among amateur boat builders, I don't see much advantage to it, especially in a professional boat building context. In particular, this is so due to the extreme restriction on the variety of possible hull shapes that can be offered. The result is that the hull shapes become extremely alike, therefore ordinary and uninteresting.

Ask any of the proponents of the Origami method how many truly "different" hull shapes they have been able to design or build using that approach (hulls which are not simply stretched or squished versions of the same thing), and I believe you'll immediately see what I mean.

As an extremely viable alternative, one can just as easily make use of the "pre-cut-plate" approach and have considerably more freedom with subtleties of hull form."
Frames First or Plating First...?


Here's an insightful quote from the website: Sailing Vessel MOM
In fairness, these folks seemed completely happy with their boat. Nothing wrong with that. And if you can make folks happy with what you have to offer, that's a good thing. I just hope your lack of engineering and design skills don't one day end up costing someone their life because they believed in your sales pitch and didn't trouble to question you on the specifics of your designs.

"We could not have built this boat without the help of the following people:
Master Boatbuilder Evan Shaler, Carolynne & Winston Bushnell, Kim Bushnell, Brent Swain and all of the folks who let us come onboard during the summer of 2006. Also a special thanks to Cheri & Travis Fogelsong. We thank you all."
Sailing Vessel MOM

I'm assuming that the amateur builder must still require the help of a master boatbuilder and the designer.


This was a very interesting website detailing an entire build of a 65' origami boat. http://www.submarineboat.com/boat_building_log.htm This sight would be a good primer if I was interested in building a boat with this technique.

Some interesting quotes that seem contrary to Brent's marketing rhetoric;
"Building a boat is the wrong thing to do if you want to start sailing and traveling. If that is what you want then go buy a used boat. There are lots of great deals out there. Building a boat is for people who want to build a boat that they can then use to sail and travel. For us, it's learning new skills and preparing for new careers."
"You have to pay for the boat's cost; a hull, mast, sails, rigging. but as you are the builder you have lots of negotiating room with the new owner. The new owner can easily quadruple that cost by adding all sorts of yachty crap. So decide how much crap you want. Building bigger does reduce the cost per square foot some, but not greatly. You can build a 36 foot origami boat in one year for $20,000 and you will not need two cranes. We will have 400 to 500 thousand in our boat before it touches the water and we are building a work boat, not a yacht. So you don't have 500,000 laying around? Neither do we. Kay is retied and can no longer work a regular job due to fibromyalgia; aka "lots of pain". And we have never saved money. But building a boat does not happen over night so we have time. We simply downsized everything and devoted every dime to the boat. No vacations, fancy cars, expensive restaurants, bars, cloths, watches, jewelry, green fees, or 401K's. We are focused on nothing other than the boat until I die or the boat is completed. PS: Should I die before the boat is completed, Kay is one amazingly awesome woman, but you will need to get in line as she has several fans that are waiting for me to end up under a large piece of steel. So if money means a lot to you, DO NOT BUILD A BOAT! Just take the cruise ship."
http://www.submarineboat.com/boat_building_log.htm


It seems that not everyone building to your method, not that you actually invented said method, views it as a means to get out on the water quicker and cheaper.

Brent, if I was to ever consider building a steel origami boat, I would start here; Origami Magic At least they are not ashamed to show pictures and line drawings of their designs. All your name calling and posturing will not change the fact that you apparently cannot answer any question posed to you by others in your field. If what I read about STIX data being required for designs in Europe is true, you just better hope that Canada doesn't start requiring such things because I seriously doubt you could provide it.

And you should look up the word dyslexic. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Disclaimer: I italicized the quotes to differentiate them from my own comments.
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Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Well done Deano. It is pretty eye-opening, eh?
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

John/Sloop

I knew AVS was the rough angle that you either stop at, or go a full 360. Just did not know what those other numbers related to AVS or if they were the same, but different, or where the most righting movement occured......

Probably like asking the difference between IRC, IMS, and phrf or some such thing......I suppose we could throw IOR in there.........all are ratings, some times one can make sense of the rule, most of the time, it is a total crap shoot!

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Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Y.M. Tanton has done some origami designs - I wish he would weigh in () here to give some experienced top level design opinions and info on the method. Everything here is either BS BS'ing or others without direct experience in the method trashing his somewhat limited technical knowledge.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Y.M. Tanton has done some origami designs - I wish he would weigh in () here to give some experienced top level design opinions and info on the method. Everything here is either BS BS'ing or others without direct experience in the method trashing his somewhat limited technical knowledge.
+1. It would be awesome to get some actual steel boat design experience in this thread.

Tanton has come on a couple of times. But I certainly can't blame him for not hanging around this quagmire.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

It is eye opening. I think the origami technique is a realistic and viable way for someone to build a boat in their back yard, if that's what they want to do. I also believe that no matter what material and technique is used, there are certain skills that must be learned that will apply to the chosen material/technique. Brent's boats are what they are. They seem to make a few people happy and I'm glad for those folks. It's just funny in a pathetic sort of way that Brent tries to make them out to be the pinnacle of design, grace, performance, beauty, stability, ruggedness, and storm fighting sailing vessels. I feel sorry for him in a way.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Dean:
Great post. Thanks very revealing.
I have been trying to say all along that the origami method means the hull shape is dependant on the technique and not "designed". This post backs my claim up.

I have been friends with Yves-Marie since 1973. I'll see what I can do. But he's a quiet guy and I'm pretty sure he would prefer to distance himself from BS here.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post

Originally Posted by SloopJonB
The only factor which affects how a boat will sink from adding weight (stores, gear etc.) is the Pounds Per Inch Immersion. It is dependent on the waterplane area, not the displacement of the boat. A heavy steel boat and a lightweight cored boat, each with 1500 Lbs per inch immersion will both sink at the same rate from additional weight being added.


Boy, I did one hell of a job screwing that up! Ha Ha!
Jon is right regarding immersion.

But immersion, regarding sailboats with the same waterplane (lenght and beam) is not the only thing that counts and is not even the limiting factor when a designer establishes a max load. If both boats are well designed, assuming identical keels and ballast ratio, the lighter boat will be more affected in what regards reserve stability and lowered AVS angle (by weight above the CB) becoming dangerous first. As I have said that has to do with the bigger percentage of weight of the load regarding the weight of the boat (the same way ballast needs has to do with the weight of the boat).

For the same reason the heavier boat (heavier hull, deck and mast) to have a similar CG as the lighter one will have to have more ballast (having the same B/D ratio of the lighter boat), the amount of load that it can carry affecting negatively the CG (above the center of Buoyancy) will be bigger than the one on the lighter boat.

The really advantage is nor regarding two boats with the same waterplane but regarding two boats with the same displacement, being one lighter and bigger and the other heavier and smaller. Here, as the boats have the same displacement, assuming identical keels and drafts and B/D ratio, the bigger boat will be able to take a bigger load considering the same negative effects on reserve stability and AVS. He would also comparatively sail better with that load than the heavier boat, with less immersion.

Regards

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
... If what I read about STIX data being required for designs in Europe is true, you just better hope that Canada doesn't start requiring such things because I seriously doubt you could provide it.
..
Even if he could not provide it he could ask someone to do it for him. His 36ft boat would pass easily, in what regards stability, what is demanded on the RCD for a class A boat.

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

So the take away is unless one is very skilled and has access to complex hydraulic shaping machinery best hull shapes will be radius chine or combinations of radius and hard chine allowing for conical development of the appropriate areas ( bow) and least parasitic drag.
For long term service life and cosmetics ( no hungry horse or easy dents) thicker plate with "floating" framing may be preferred. As there is more area of plate then framing depending on frameless construction has potential issues of ending up a heavier boat but not stronger.
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