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  #3431  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by djodenda View Post
Well.. OK, Kim... We won't hurt her...

Even though the work on my friend's 1D35 is probably late because they would rather work on your boat.

They are giving us a free coffee mug.. Figure they owe you a couple
I am going to ask for my mug when I am next there!
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  #3432  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
A couple more from my buddy Boomer.





Denda:
Just don't bump anything!
Very decorative . Not very functional. Bob, it aint like you to waste so much boat on cockpit.
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  #3433  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Depends on what function you are seeking.
Of course it is not your kind of boat Mr. Swain, but do not fear, she was not designed for you.
She was designed for me and that is the cockpit I wanted.

The world would be a boring place if all vessels were the same.
Faster, djodenda, mitiempo and 1 others like this.

Last edited by kimbottles; 01-28-2014 at 05:13 PM.
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  #3434  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Smack mentions spending tens of thousands of dollars on tools to build a steel boat. Does anyone see tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools in Alex's video, or on the origami boats site? Is Smack referring to the other Texan, who said you need a brake press, which can only bend straight lines, to build a sailboat hull, which has few if any straight lines? Do you know any more Texan jokes, Smack?
Lets see. Three comealongs at under $20 each. A 225 amp buzzbox welder, the cheapest welder available. A cutting torch. A sledgehammer. Three 3/4 inch pipe clamps . A hydraulic jack. A couple of crowbars. Several C clamps, and vise grips . A chipping hammer. A ball peen hammer . A 25 ft tape measure. An angle grinder and discs. A big square and a small adjustable one. If Smack cant buy that for under tens of thousands of dollars, who is he to be giving financial advice to boat builders?
When reading these posts, one should constantly bear in mind that neither Smack, nor Bob nor Dean have any experience in building, cruising long term in, nor maintaining long term, any steel boat, yet they claim to know more about the subject than someone who has been doing exactly that for decades. They are amateurs, in every sense of the word, on this subject. Or, you could ask anyone who has built a steel boat, how many tens of thousands of dollars they have spent on tools , and base your assessment of Smacks credibility on their answer.
Smack said Moitessier went crazy? What is his definition of crazy? Bernard chose sailing on to Tahiti, instead of returning to European suburbia, and the rat race . According to Smack, anyone who would choose Tahiti over suburbia is CRAZY! All cruisers who leave suburbia to sail to Tahiti are CRAZY according to him. Do cruisers and wannbe cruisers on this site agree with him? They can judge his credibility on the answer to that question. Is he the kind of guy they should be getting their cruising advice from?
When I hung out with Moitessier in Tahiti in 78, he was anything but crazy, and was, as usual, extremely logical and practical. The only craziness I saw was his concern about food addatives ,while sucking on a cigarette. It was the cigarettes which killed him. Was he alone in that craziness? I don't think so.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 01-28-2014 at 05:25 PM.
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  #3435  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Some room for improvement on the tiller, Kim...

Maybe something that looks like the scroll of a cello...

Naw.. that's been done....
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  #3436  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by djodenda View Post
Some room for improvement on the tiller, Kim...

Maybe something that looks like the scroll of a cello...

Naw.. that's been done....
You don't like the 2x4's we used to get her to the dock?
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by kimbottles View Post
You don't like the 2x4's we used to get her to the dock?
Yeah.. Maybe they would be OK if you painted them or something.

I think a hiking stick made out of a 2X2 would fit nicely. I'll bring one by and you can see
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  #3438  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
Ok, Brent, I went ahead and did some of your work for you since you can't seem to grasp the concept of backing up your claims. If it's not to your liking, which I'm sure it won't be, then do your own dirty work like everybody else.

This forum https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/origamiboats/info is moderated by Brent Swain and Alex Christie. Since the last paragraph of the groups description details how to purchase DVD's from Christie and books from Swain, I do not consider this an unbiased resource.

This sight About Us - Origamiboats: The Art of Frameless Steel Boatbuilding is another front for your business. Again, not an unbiased resource.

I found a discussion of steel building methods on the Kaston Marine Design website. And Brent, before you go into a tirade about how they are promoting their own agenda or they are just infidels to your Godhood, the point here is that the write-up is NOT biased and fairly depicts the pro's and con's of each method. That is something you have not done here nor on any of your own websites. And that is why I do not believe in anything you have to say.
This is copy and pasted from the website Frames First or Plating First...?

"Within the "plate-first" approach, there are two main divisions:
• The "Pre-Cut-Plate" method as described above, and
• The "Folded-Plate" or so-called Origami method.

With the "Pre-Cut-Plate" approach, the plating is all planned for developability (curvature in one direction only, i.e. not saddle shaped or dome shaped). Here, the plating is all pre-cut, pulled into place - ordinarily over a mould or temporary supports - then stitched together along the seams. This is essentially the "plate-first" method described above.

Taking this pre-cut-plate approach one step farther, we have the "Folded Plate" or Origami method, whereby as many of the hull plate weld seams as possible are eliminated via an ingenious layout of the seams and a shape that allows there to be a number of "pre-joined" areas.

The advantage of the "Folded Plate" method is that with an accurately pre-planned outline that's cut out of plate, the entire hull plating can first be laid out flat - port and starboard - welded where necessary to create the sizes and shapes required, then it's all pulled together and stitched into place. Using this method, once the plate shapes have been determined, the hull plating can be erected in a very short time - often in a matter of days.

Of course this looks impressive...! It actually is impressive! Naturally this concept has captured the imagination of the amateur metal boat building community, thus a possibly significant contingent among potential owner-builders.

With the Folded Plate / Origami method however, one must realize that the designer is unfortunately extremely limited in terms of the possible hull shapes that will actually do this trick. Try it with paper cutouts and you will be immediately convinced. You can achieve a few minor variations and still get shapes that will fold together, but regional subtleties of hull form are just not possible. If a different type of hull form is desired, then quite a lot of trial and error time must be spent - usually by making actual trial cutouts and seeing if they will fit together in an attempt to discover a totally flat plate layout that will provide the intended shape when folded together.

This is not only a severe limitation on the designer - it also restricts the builder who may as a result have only one basic model to offer. In other words, variations to the hull shape are difficult and time consuming to create, so the vessels are limited to being either larger or smaller, fatter or more slender, taller or shorter, having more or less sheer, yet essentially the same in their general shape and appearance.

Further, it must be kept in mind that just as with the "pre-cut-plate" method, the "Folded-Plate" or Origami method is generally only applicable to the hull plating itself, and not to the keel, rudder, deck, superstructure, nor to the equipment, rig, joinery, systems, etc. In other words, though it should be accomplished as efficiently as possible, erecting the plating is only a small part of building the hull, and a very small part of the whole picture.

We therefore observe the following disadvantages of the "Origami" method:
• Only a limited portion of the total plate surface will be addressed by the Origami method;
• The variety of hull shapes that are possible both aesthetically and functionally are quite limited;
• There will be quite a lot of fussing around with trial shapes prior to achieving the desired result;
• There will still be internal framing... actually quite a lot of it in the form of girders, tank faces and tops, bulkheads, sole flats, deck beams, etc.

As a result of these factors, I have not been tempted to pursue the Origami approach in my design work.
Except for the initial "wow" factor, which holds a certain well deserved appeal among amateur boat builders, I don't see much advantage to it, especially in a professional boat building context. In particular, this is so due to the extreme restriction on the variety of possible hull shapes that can be offered. The result is that the hull shapes become extremely alike, therefore ordinary and uninteresting.

Ask any of the proponents of the Origami method how many truly "different" hull shapes they have been able to design or build using that approach (hulls which are not simply stretched or squished versions of the same thing), and I believe you'll immediately see what I mean.

As an extremely viable alternative, one can just as easily make use of the "pre-cut-plate" approach and have considerably more freedom with subtleties of hull form."
Frames First or Plating First...?


Here's an insightful quote from the website: Sailing Vessel MOM
In fairness, these folks seemed completely happy with their boat. Nothing wrong with that. And if you can make folks happy with what you have to offer, that's a good thing. I just hope your lack of engineering and design skills don't one day end up costing someone their life because they believed in your sales pitch and didn't trouble to question you on the specifics of your designs.

"We could not have built this boat without the help of the following people:
Master Boatbuilder Evan Shaler, Carolynne & Winston Bushnell, Kim Bushnell, Brent Swain and all of the folks who let us come onboard during the summer of 2006. Also a special thanks to Cheri & Travis Fogelsong. We thank you all."
Sailing Vessel MOM

I'm assuming that the amateur builder must still require the help of a master boatbuilder and the designer.


This was a very interesting website detailing an entire build of a 65' origami boat. http://www.submarineboat.com/boat_building_log.htm This sight would be a good primer if I was interested in building a boat with this technique.

Some interesting quotes that seem contrary to Brent's marketing rhetoric;
"Building a boat is the wrong thing to do if you want to start sailing and traveling. If that is what you want then go buy a used boat. There are lots of great deals out there. Building a boat is for people who want to build a boat that they can then use to sail and travel. For us, it's learning new skills and preparing for new careers."
"You have to pay for the boat's cost; a hull, mast, sails, rigging. but as you are the builder you have lots of negotiating room with the new owner. The new owner can easily quadruple that cost by adding all sorts of yachty crap. So decide how much crap you want. Building bigger does reduce the cost per square foot some, but not greatly. You can build a 36 foot origami boat in one year for $20,000 and you will not need two cranes. We will have 400 to 500 thousand in our boat before it touches the water and we are building a work boat, not a yacht. So you don't have 500,000 laying around? Neither do we. Kay is retied and can no longer work a regular job due to fibromyalgia; aka "lots of pain". And we have never saved money. But building a boat does not happen over night so we have time. We simply downsized everything and devoted every dime to the boat. No vacations, fancy cars, expensive restaurants, bars, cloths, watches, jewelry, green fees, or 401K's. We are focused on nothing other than the boat until I die or the boat is completed. PS: Should I die before the boat is completed, Kay is one amazingly awesome woman, but you will need to get in line as she has several fans that are waiting for me to end up under a large piece of steel. So if money means a lot to you, DO NOT BUILD A BOAT! Just take the cruise ship."
http://www.submarineboat.com/boat_building_log.htm


It seems that not everyone building to your method, not that you actually invented said method, views it as a means to get out on the water quicker and cheaper.

Brent, if I was to ever consider building a steel origami boat, I would start here; Origami Magic At least they are not ashamed to show pictures and line drawings of their designs. All your name calling and posturing will not change the fact that you apparently cannot answer any question posed to you by others in your field. If what I read about STIX data being required for designs in Europe is true, you just better hope that Canada doesn't start requiring such things because I seriously doubt you could provide it.

And you should look up the word dyslexic. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Disclaimer: I italicized the quotes to differentiate them from my own comments.
This makes my point exactly. Kasten claims the method CANT be used for keel ,skeg, rudder, decks, cabin, etc. while I on the origami site, in my book and in Alex's video, you can see the keels, rudder, cabin, decks, wheelhouse etc. , being built using origami methods, something we have been doing since hull number one, back in 1979 . Anyone reading this site can confirm that, by checking the photos on the origami boats site. Kasten has been told this, and has full access to the origami boats site, yet continues to spread the bull, and disinformation. So how can anyone believe anything else he has to say on the subject? He stubbornly refuses to educate himself on the subject, while spreading bull, not the kind of guy one should rely on for any steel boat building information.
Sure you cant have pointless subtleties on an origami boat, but when they sail as well as any other cruising boat, who cares. Why would you spend ten times the time for subtleties which don't affect performance in any way? That is the kind of thinking which pointlessly turns a boat into a ten year project. The kind of thinking you advocate, while being critical of the predictable results!

The couple quoted are not building one of my 36 footers .Had they been, they would have gone cruising long ago. When you start the first one off, and huge, you begin the leaning process on things which were worked out decades ago on my 36 footer. There is no comparison between a 75 footer first off , and a 36 footer which has been built so many times, for over 30 years
The weight of the 1/8th inch plate on my decks cabinsides and cabin top are exactly the same as the weight of the same thickness on a Dix design, or a Whithotz, or a Roberts, or a Tanton, or a Colvin or a Van de Stadt, etc. etc. They don't have a secret source of lighter per sq ft steel! The deadrise on my boats is similar to many of their designs . Bob, yes you can shallow the deadrise , but on a 36 footer, that would require you to raise the freeboard to get headroom, and what effect would that have on stability ?Would it reduce it more than any gains you would get by a shallower deadrise?
Probably.
Multi chine hulls are far less stable than a single chine hull, especially if they don't have a lot of topside flare.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 01-28-2014 at 06:01 PM.
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  #3439  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
neither Smack, nor Bob nor Dean...
Sweet! Hey Deano, you made the list brotha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Smack mentions spending tens of thousands of dollars on tools to build a steel boat. Does anyone see tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools in Alex's video, or on the origami boats site?

Three comealongs at under $20 each.
A 225 amp buzzbox welder, the cheapest welder available.
A cutting torch.
A sledgehammer.
Three 3/4 inch pipe clamps .
A hydraulic jack.
A couple of crowbars.
Several C clamps.
Vise grips.
A chipping hammer.
A ball peen hammer.
A 25 ft tape measure.
An angle grinder and discs.
A big square and a small adjustable one.

If Smack cant buy that for under tens of thousands of dollars, who is he to be giving financial advice to boat builders?
Wow! So that's all you need to build a BS Yacht? I guess I was wrong.

I'm really eager to see how you do all the systems work (electrical, plumbing, propulsion), the interior finish work, the sandblasting and painting, the lead smelting, the rigging, the ports and hatches, the installation of all the deck hardware, etc. - with a ballpeen hammer and C clamps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
According to Smack, anyone who would choose Tahiti over suburbia is CRAZY!
Ah, no. According to me, anyone who would choose hermiting in a cold, stinky, steel boat in BC over Tahiti is CRAZY!
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