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  #351  
Old 08-01-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

jak:
Can't remember but I'm meeting with the owner this afternoon and I'l get that info for you.

Bob P.
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  #352  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
Well you certainly think a lot of your opinions, as I do my own. I have personally been in charge of transportation for a LOT of steel that went to shipyards to be used in the building of ships. Funny thing BS, a lot of it was rolled, or had been bent with a press brake. It is a good way to get nice straight lines in steel, something I am sure you know. Now as to why I want the building to have such a nice high clearance, I want to be able to rig the vessel inside in order to have it all ready once I am ready to move it. I would not leave it on there, I just would like to be able to get every bit of the rigging done indoors, all the stuff fitted and done correctly, then take it all down and transport it. I kind of doubt that it would be a bad idea to be able to do it, an even better one would be to have the building be located where you could launch the boat mast and all right into the ocean by using a nice travelling crane to walk it out and set it gently into the water, fully rigged and ready to test the engines and sails.

If you used a brake or roller to make some of the bends and shapes you would be able to get a lot more out of the steel than if you did not. The fact that you are braking the material when you pull it together does not mean that a method of braking it was not used, because it is either rolled or has a brake in it anywhere it is not flat. Facts is facts, and since even you are not trying to sail a flat piece of steel it had to get bent some way, I just thought I would prefer to do it a little ahead of time, and not as I was trying to make the hull joints. In fact in light steel like the kind you use I would think the brake would give some rigidity, like if you broke the two halves at the keel seam up to a 90 degree angle to make a flange to weld together there, now maybe you are using angle iron or something like that welded at the keel seam, but I think that if you ran it through a brake, or even a roller brake and put a 4 inch high 90 degree flange along the seam it would be easier to weld, and would have a really good structural load point there.

Maybe I am wrong, but I know the material would be much stronger and you would have the added benefit of that flange, which you could have to the inside or the outside whichever one makes the most sense to give you a structural reinforcement right there along the keel seam. If it were facing to the inside you could drill through it to mount things like the mast step, the engine mounts, and the other loads. If it faced outward it would act as a mini keel from stem to stern and you would have a centerline that you could use to anchor the keel on the cross section as well as the welds or bolts that you use from the bottom to the hull. If you wanted to do things like that to the design then you could, but of course you like to have it built in someone's backyard, take ten years to do it, and then have the poor original owner have to sell it and let someone else come in to finish it.
I think it is time you visited the origamiboats site and took a look at how we do things. It will show you that what you propose is irrelevant .The keel hull joint is 8 ft of 3/16th plate holding the side of any of the twin keels, around 1.8 million pounds tensile strength, times 4, so what would be relevance of what you suggest in a boat the weight of a 36 footer. I have built boats from Campbell River to San Francisco to Minnesota to Winnipeg. I don't think they would let me bring along the brake press and rolls you suggest as personal baggage on a plane.
It is the misinformation that one must have such expensive tools, which causes many a steel boatbuilder to go bankrupt and backyard projects to take far longer and more money than they ever need to. It would take hundreds of boats to justify them , no chance on a one off.
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  #353  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Wow TQ. That is definitely well documented!

The timeline sounds about right. What is ironic is this statement at the very beginning:



It ain't always as promised eh?

So do you want to build a steel boat for the next X years? Or do you want to sail?
I started my steel boat April 12th 84, launched her May 12th 84, had her sailing by mid October 84,. and moved aboard.The second 36 I build was started February 4th 82 launched april 15th 82 , went for her first sail, May
24th 82 then headed for Mexico November the same year.
Takes a lot of focus , but can be done, and has been many times.
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  #354  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by jak3b View Post
Chronological age is sometimes misleading.When Brent went on the tuff guy MMA thing my guess would have been a 15 to 16 year old in serious need of getting laid.
That post was in response to Bob's use of Karate terms, an excellent example of style over substance, taken to extremes, eventually rendering something quite useless.
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  #355  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
By the amount of BS I'd say his fingers are well rested.
Said by someone with zero hands on steel boat building experience,and zero experience in cruising in and maintaining a steel boat for any length of time. Not a reliable source of any info on steel boats.
I believe he lives that "Land" life", where you borrow money to buy things you don't need, to impress people you don't like.

Further back, Bob made a comment about 'cheap boats vs good boats A good boat is one with good planning, based on many decades of cruising in and maintaining a similar type of boat, especially true of steel boats . Without that you can throw all the money in the world at a boat and it wont fit the definition . Steel is steel, gumwood is gumwood, epoxy is epoxy. Same stuff whether a cheap boat or expensive. Salvaged plywood which has been exposed for along time without delaminating is far more reliable than something out of a lumberyard which is untested. Older fir plywood was all fir, new stuff has alder cores.
In many ways , how good a boat is has little to do with how much money one throws at it , and everything to do with the thinking which goes into her, and the experience that thinking is based on. Don't expect much of that from someone who has never built, cruised or owned a steel boat for any length of time.

In Rodger Mcaffe's book, the author says his father, a diesel mechanic told him that a rebuilt diesel is far more reliable than a new one. Casters have told me that there is no predicting or determining how good a casting is until it is put into use. I have seen new diesels having problems with castings in a short time.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 08-01-2013 at 11:31 PM.
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  #356  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Yves-Marie knows yacht design inside and out. He has the eye and he comprehends the numbers. I would not be the designer I am today without the year I spent working with Yves-Marie. He taught me precision in hand drafting.
Tanton is now designing in origami, realizing where the future if metal boats lies, rather than clinging the past, and its outdated building methods. Realizing the success of my 36, he has designed his own version in aluminium. Metal boatbuilding needs more open minded people like him, and fewer dinosaurs.
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  #357  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Little BS:
I am not responsible for your responses. You are. That's the adult way.
Children blame other people for what they do. Adults take responsability for their own actions. You get caught in a technical corner where you have no answer and what do you do? You attack my wife? Brilliant.

jak:
The L. Francis design is the "the sailing machine" it has a canting keel! Only one boat waas built to this ndesign and it is in New Zeakand and called the FIERY CROSS. It does not have a canting keel. There have been some images of this boat posted on SA.

I just got back from a nice dinner in Seattle with the fam and a nic voiit to the SLIVER project. It's all primered now and tomorrow will be long boarded. It'll be as smooth as a baby's bottom in no time. In fact, I had a hard time seeing what needed to be faired but then I have never painted an entire hull so I'll just leave that to the pros as CSR. It sure looked fair to me.
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  #358  
Old 08-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Just got back from sailing around Desolation sound . No crowds this year. Lots of wind, til lately. Good swimming. Good ice cream sources. Zero rain in 33 days. Not much internet over there. Didn't miss it, but realized how much time I was wasting here on this site.
Bob. I asked you how much steel boat cruising ,maintaining and building experience your "expertise" is based on and you attack me. Still no answer. Interpretation?
ZERO!
I'm here for the summer, and into the fall.
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  #359  
Old 08-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Little BS:
I am not responsible for your responses. You are. That's the adult way.
Children blame other people for what they do. Adults take responsability for their own actions. You get caught in a technical corner where you have no answer and what do you do? You attack my wife? Brilliant.

jak:
The L. Francis design is the "the sailing machine" it has a canting keel! Only one boat waas built to this ndesign and it is in New Zeakand and called the FIERY CROSS. It does not have a canting keel. There have been some images of this boat posted on SA.

I just got back from a nice dinner in Seattle with the fam and a nic voiit to the SLIVER project. It's all primered now and tomorrow will be long boarded. It'll be as smooth as a baby's bottom in no time. In fact, I had a hard time seeing what needed to be faired but then I have never painted an entire hull so I'll just leave that to the pros as CSR. It sure looked fair to me.
Bob, Thanks. I thought it must have been 'The Sailing Machine'.Ive seen pictures of Fiery Cross. I believe she was built by Jim Young in the 60's.Gary Underwood in N.Z. had her for awhile. I cant wait to see Francis Lee sailing.Great work,Absolutley cool project.
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  #360  
Old 08-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I started my steel boat April 12th 84, launched her May 12th 84, had her sailing by mid October 84,. and moved aboard.The second 36 I build was started February 4th 82 launched april 15th 82 , went for her first sail, May
24th 82 then headed for Mexico November the same year.
Takes a lot of focus , but can be done, and has been many times.
Brent, that's awesome. It really is very impressive.

But it has absolutely no bearing on what it will take a green boat building dreamer to get it done after they've bought your plans. You've already said you've worked with steel all your life. So, for your boats to make any sense for anyone, that person needs to have years of experience working with steel (and many other systems).

Your boats are not for the 99% - period. They are for the 1%.

Nothing wrong with that at all. It's just the way it is.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 08-02-2013 at 01:44 AM.
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