Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 361 - SailNet Community
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post #3601 of 5317 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Never:
I think there is some truth in what you say.

I have a set of Lalique wine glasses. I almost never use them. They have naked cherubs wrapped around a bunch of grapes where the stem meets the bowl.

But I do use glass wine glasses. I would never drink out of a plastic cup if I had a glass option.

Nobody has argued that steel and alloy boats are not the most durable.
I like alu boats.

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post #3602 of 5317 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Got to see Francis Lee on Saturday morning as well.. Sorry I missed you, Bob..

The boat looks great! I prefer the new transparent aluminum tiller to the marine-grade 2X4s..

Again, congratulations to Kim and Bob..

I noticed the electric winches... Are the power requirements low enough on the battery that they can be kept charged with just normal engine operation?

David

1987 CS 36 Merlin "Kyrie"

"They drove a dump truck full of money up to my house. I'm not made of stone!" -Krusty the Clown
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post #3603 of 5317 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstern View Post
Bob: how accurate is the weight study? When I first realized that NA's did such a thing, my first thought was "how can they account for every little do-dad that goes on board a sophisticated yacht?" I had always assumed the NA had a list with the weights of various materials, and simply applied them to the estimated quantities of material that were planned to go into construction. Based on your earlier post, I now know you keep a running tab on the actual weights of the material used. Do you do an estimate before you start, then adjust the numbers as the actual material is used? If so, how do you adjust the design if your estimate turns out to be significantly off? I've learned alot about design over the years by reading your column in Sailing, and in forums like this; it seems the more I learn, the less I know....
Silas Crosby came up 6 inches at 1150 lbs per inch, when Steve emptied her out, as did Winston's first 36. Both had places ashore to store their extra junk; their boat was not their only storage place. There is no way of calculating how much weight anyone will put in a boat. The interior, or for that matter, the weight of any 36 built of the same or similar plate thickness is pretty much, about the same , unlike plastic boats , which can vary greatly in thickness. The differences in what any two owners will put aboard varies far more than any differences in the boat weight. That appears to be something plastic boat designers have problems grasping.
How relevant is the weight of a galley pump, compared to the differences in weight of what goes aboard? Worth paying someone $150 an hour, or $35K to calculate?
People building my boats from my plans and book ,and Alex's video, have had no problem building, and have said it is the easiest boat to build they have ever built.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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post #3604 of 5317 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"Worth paying someone $150 an hour, or $35K to calculate?"

It wouldn't be worth paying you that much Brent because you have problems with math as you have admitted. But it's worth paying me that because I get it right as evidenced by Frankie. If you want quality design work you will have to pay for it. BS is cheap.

Case in point:
Someone put 6,900 lbs. of gear on a 36' boat? Wow! And for accuracy sake, it isn't 1,150 lbs. per inch for 6" in trim change. The lbs. per inch would change significantly in a 6" change of trim.

Relax Brent, lighten up. It's Superbowl Sunday.

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post #3605 of 5317 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob, you have long done a great service to plastic boat owners, by designing some of the best plastic production boats , for those who simply want to buy a boat. You ( and Smack)do a great disservice to those preferring metal boats, by making statements based on rumours, old wives tales, and tales spread by the plastic boat industry, on a subject you know little about , and have little experience with.
We would all be better off if you would stick to your area of expertise. Like the discussions on BD.net, I give almost all the experience based input on this subject, by anyone who has any extensive hands on experience on this subject. Like BD.net , those who know very little about the subject have tried to take over the discussion. When I asked who there had any cruising experience in a steel boat, only one (I besides me ), mentioned limited coastal cruising in a metal boat. Only one had any extensive metal boat building experience (and had built frameless metal boats ) One was starting his first ever metal boat ( and became an instant expert) and the others had zero experience in metal boats, while claiming to know more about them than someone who had built dozens of them, over decades, and who had crossed the Pacific in one many times .

You are right Bob, the lbs per inch immersion goes up as she sinks, less in a boat with short overhangs than on one with long overhangs.
Quality in design can only come from someone with experience in the material being used. You have plenty in plastic but little in steel . You'd be the best source for info on plastic ,and one of the worst for info on steel.
Super bowl? Who cares !
Suns coming out, a good westerly rising, and forecast to last. Time to go cruising!

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Last edited by Brent Swain; 02-02-2014 at 04:37 PM.
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post #3606 of 5317 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent:
You are befuddled again. I have never made a claim to being an expert is steel construction. You are going to have to produce that exact quote and stop making things up again.

But this thread is"pros and cons" and I think my work shows the "cons" pretty well. Especially when we are looking at your boats.

I also have published some of my aluminum boats here and I have no problem at all with alloy boats.

It seems to me that you spend way too much time attacking other peopple because there is very little postive you can say about your own boats other then they are durable and cheap. Perhaps if you spent more time on the pros of your boats and less time mounting attacks on those who disagree with you there might be more traction for your ideas here. But most of your posts are bitter blather.

Go Seahawks!
Just to rub some salt into that never healing wound, here's an alu 65'er I did:
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob
Your Comox friend can stroll down the dock and confirm how far Silas Crosby has risen since being emptied out , along with waterline length and beam, which should let you check the chart for lbs per inch immersion.
If you took all the gear out of a boat which has been cruised for a while, and put it on the dock, you would swear there is no way all that stuff would ever fit in that boat.

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post #3608 of 5317 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
People building my boats from my plans and book ,and Alex's video, have had no problem building, and have said it is the easiest boat to build they have ever built.
Finally! Some good advice for the wannabe cruiser from Brent himself!

So if you look back in the thread, and add the above, here is what Brent Swain advises the cruiser wannabe (which I totally agree with):

1. Fiberglass boats are the best value for those first-timers who just want to get out and see what cruising is all about - instead of spending years and tens of thousands trying to build a boat and missing out on all that cruising.

2. After you've cruised said fiberglass boat around for a few years - if you find yourself wanting to go sailing in ice, or growing more and more paranoid about Fukushima debris, or just want to stop worrying about running aground and hitting other boats, a steel boat like a BS Special is probably a pretty good boat for you. (Find a used one - they are insanely cheap.)

3. If you do actually decide to build a BS Yacht for yourself - MAKE SURE that it is not your first boat to build (see above quote). Build a few other types first - THEN "Give The BS Yacht A Shot!" (the new tagline).

(Otherwise, you're screwed - and will have a rusty hulk on stands in your backyard until your grandchildren are forced to deal with it upon your sad demise.)


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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
You ( and Smack)do a great disservice to those preferring metal boats, by making statements based on rumours, old wives tales, and tales spread by the plastic boat industry...
Otherwise known as "math".
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post #3610 of 5317 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent:
I believe you on the 6". I have zero interest in having it measured. You should be easily able to provide the numbers. But I suspect you cannot. I can do it for my designs with a push of a computer button. But then I have real hull lines.

I find 6,000 lbs. hard to imagine on a boat that size. But I'm not doubting it.

Denda:
I am getting you an answer on your winch question. Fact is I just don't know. I have emailed Kim for an answer.

Funny day ha ha.
Two boats for sale, one on Youtube a Tartan 37 " A classic Bob Perry design". It's an S&S design folks!
The other boat a 39' Perry/Benford" design with my name all over the Craigslist add. I have zero to do with it.
Maybe I did do that mystery alu 28'er BS talks about. Seems my name adds "appeal".

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Last edited by bobperry; 02-02-2014 at 05:13 PM.
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