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  #361  
Old 08-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Jak:
That's the boat. Amazing that canting keels go back that far. When you think you have something new,,,you don't.

Construction started this week on a 28'er based on one of my cartoons. The client is a return client. He built a cold molded (yes wood and he didn't die) 44'er I design and cruised Mexico for a couple of years. He is the consumate wood worker. He came to me with the idea of building the cartoon and I was quite dubious. It was never intended as a real boat. It was just a cartoon. But he insisted and greased the skids with the common denominator so how could I resist. I promise you I'll post the drawings soon. This may be one of my very best designs. It's a lifting keel, twin rudder,,,whatever based on this cartoon. I'm very lucky. With the three projects I have being built now and the two new design jobs I have I feel fortunate that in this economy I still get clients. And I can charge what I like and avoid the Value Village school of yacht design.

If you look at the cartoon of "ED" and laugh that's OK. I drew it to make people chuckle. But I do have the eye and John, my client, saw this cartoon and saw in it the boat to build next. I was quite surprised when I started to translate the cartoon into a real design that it actually worked. In fact the real design is a much better boat than the cartoon. My job can be a lot of fun sometimes.
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Last edited by bobperry; 08-02-2013 at 12:42 AM.
  #362  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"If you look at the cartoon of "ED" and laugh that's OK. I drew it to make people chuckle. But I do have the eye and John, my client, saw this cartoon and saw in it the boat to build next. I was quite surprised when I started to translate the cartoon into a real design that it actually worked. In fact the real design is a much better boat than the cartoon. My job can be a lot of fun sometimes. "

Thats Great!.And isnt fun what this is all about?.There was another cartoon boat you drew I thought would be a cool 'real' boat. Ill see if I can find it.And hey, it sure beats the hell out of shooting boats and smashing rocks,... or was it the other way around.
  #363  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Here it is:

I love the stern and I could definatley see the profile.
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  #364  
Old 08-02-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Jak:
That's the boat. Amazing that canting keels go back that far. When you think you have something new,,,you don't.

Construction started this week on a 28'er based on one of my cartoons. The client is a return client. He built a cold molded (yes wood and he didn't die) 44'er I design and cruised Mexico for a couple of years. He is the consumate wood worker. He came to me with the idea of building the cartoon and I was quite dubious. It was never intended as a real boat. It was just a cartoon. But he insisted and greased the skids with the common denominator so how could I resist. I promise you I'll post the drawings soon. This may be one of my very best designs. It's a lifting keel, twin rudder,,,whatever based on this cartoon. I'm very lucky. With the three projects I have being built now and the two new design jobs I have I feel fortunate that in this economy I still get clients. And I can charge what I like and avoid the Value Village school of yacht design.

If you look at the cartoon of "ED" and laugh that's OK. I drew it to make people chuckle. But I do have the eye and John, my client, saw this cartoon and saw in it the boat to build next. I was quite surprised when I started to translate the cartoon into a real design that it actually worked. In fact the real design is a much better boat than the cartoon. My job can be a lot of fun sometimes.
It's great that one of your cartoons is going to get built. Ever since I first saw them I've wondered how cool and how much fun one would be in real life. As I said once before, they strike me as a perfect "boys boat".

Imagine being 14 and going out on Ed with one or two of your friends.

Real Huck Finn stuff.
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  #365  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Jak:
That's the boat. Amazing that canting keels go back that far. When you think you have something new,,,you don't.

Construction started this week on a 28'er based on one of my cartoons. The client is a return client. He built a cold molded (yes wood and he didn't die) 44'er I design and cruised Mexico for a couple of years. He is the consumate wood worker. He came to me with the idea of building the cartoon and I was quite dubious. It was never intended as a real boat. It was just a cartoon. But he insisted and greased the skids with the common denominator so how could I resist. I promise you I'll post the drawings soon. This may be one of my very best designs. It's a lifting keel, twin rudder,,,whatever based on this cartoon. I'm very lucky. With the three projects I have being built now and the two new design jobs I have I feel fortunate that in this economy I still get clients. And I can charge what I like and avoid the Value Village school of yacht design.

If you look at the cartoon of "ED" and laugh that's OK. I drew it to make people chuckle. But I do have the eye and John, my client, saw this cartoon and saw in it the boat to build next. I was quite surprised when I started to translate the cartoon into a real design that it actually worked. In fact the real design is a much better boat than the cartoon. My job can be a lot of fun sometimes.
Looks like a west wight potter on steroids and perhaps a dose of magic mushrooms.
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  #366  
Old 08-03-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Hey Bob, I took these pictures to send to you, a few of your pretty butt's. We are in La Cruz de Huanacaxtle, Mexico. We sailed down from Portland last Sept. You may not remember a few years ago @ Portland Yacht Club I had my Baba 30 there and we talked about my replacement of the wood spar with aluminum and Volvo with a Westerbeke. Anyhow I thought you'd enjoy our line up. The Valiant 40 is #7 and now I believe some where out of cyclone season after passing French Polynesia, and a Tayana 37. We also had with us on dock 9, a Baba 35 and Panda 40 as well as a couple Passport 40's and now I have an Islander 32 next to me. If you are so inclined we have a Blog I'd like to share with you. rainbowspinnaker | Sailing away with Nikk and Jan Fair Winds. Nikk & Jan sv Balance.

Yes, they are out there cruising. They sail grp production boats. They are not dieing and their boats are not falling apart. I certainly won't be the one to tell them that they can't do it and certainly not in those boats. I'm not going to tell them they are not having fun. That's for BS. I am humble and proud that these folks are cruising and enjoying my boats. And this is only one marina's crowd. I feel pretty satisfied. If my son were here I'd feel great!
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Last edited by bobperry; 08-03-2013 at 01:56 PM.
  #367  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Its amazing they made it having to slolum through all the Fukashima debris;-).
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

It's important to get a competent surveyor, who's credible by a third party. Had a friend who bought a 50 ft. older steel power cruiser, manufactured by a very credible German yard. Upgraded by a wealthy owner. Looked great. Still they lost thier house, savings and more on hull repairs... ended up giving up on the project. Most surveyors survey what's accessible. Not good enough for steel. Got to get into the tanks and all hull areas. Putting a plate over a rusted hull section is only acceptable as an emergency repair as the corrosion continues underneath. Trust but verify.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Walt- I think you hit on the ultimate reason folks like me are scared by metal boats. We just don't have the background or expertise to judge a metal vessel. I don't know what a good survey of a metal boat really is so dependency on the unknown skill of the surveyor adds anxiety. I don't know how to judge if the surveyor ultrasounded the boat correctly etc.. Although the overwhelming majority of vessels on the water are steel, these commercial vessels are built with a service life in mind and have periodic inspections to ensure integrity. One doesn't know what has occurred with pleasure vessels. New construction in Alu for a specific cruise makes sense but used steel just scares me.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltthesalt View Post
It's important to get a competent surveyor, who's credible by a third party. Had a friend who bought a 50 ft. older steel power cruiser, manufactured by a very credible German yard. Upgraded by a wealthy owner. Looked great. Still they lost thier house, savings and more on hull repairs... ended up giving up on the project. Most surveyors survey what's accessible. Not good enough for steel. Got to get into the tanks and all hull areas. Putting a plate over a rusted hull section is only acceptable as an emergency repair as the corrosion continues underneath. Trust but verify.
You are 100% correct in your assertion that there is no way to visually inspect a steel hull and certify it as to its integrity. When I had the oil field pipe business we had a machine that cost well over a million dollars that was one of the only ways to inspect steel pipe correctly. This machine is called an EMI and is basically an MRI for pipe, it uses several large magnetic coils to generate a field which can "see" through the pipe and detect microscopic defects and flaws in the pipe. This inspection is done on almost all oilfield casing and tubing, in an effort to prevent "blowouts" and reveals the flaws in the pipe. It does a great job, however there is not a good way to run an EMI on a hull, you cannot see the microfractures that come from stress on the material.

There are surveyors who use ultrasound to do hull inspections on steel boats. This is the only way to really get a good idea of the hull integrity, and it is costly. If you are purchasing a used mega-yacht the cost is not prohibitive, if you are purchasing a used sailboat under 40 feet it may be more than most would be willing to spend on a survey, and it takes up to two days to do it. There are not many people here in the states who can do an ultrasound hull survey, so that makes it even more fun.


The stress of an impact on the keel seam of a vessel weighing in at somewhere around 30,000 pounds is going to so far exceed the tensile strength of the material at the point of impact as to be able to cause incredible damage and still not be visible. The damage will be done at the molecular level, and this is something you cannot see or inspect on a survey, but it sure can come back to haunt you.


BS said that the steel he used had some huge million plus pound tensile strength, that is not true. I do not know how anyone can state that and even expect us to believe it, because there is not a single type of steel with a tensile strength that high. This is not an assumption, it is a fact.

If you use A36 steel, 3/16" thickness you have an estimated tensile strength of 36,000 pounds, that is what the 36 represents. Layering it to four layers does not increase the tensile strength at all, it does raise the amount of force needed to penetrate the hull, but not to 1,800,000 psi times four, as asserted by BS. I have no idea how BS came up with that number for tensile strength, but unless he can show me a metallurgical test for the specific hull plating used that gives a tensile strength of 1,800,000 psi I am going to have to say he has had a mathematical error somewhere in his calculations.

To start with 3/16" is too thin for a hull, especially at the keel, I would think that the keel would want to be done in about 3/4 inch steel plate, which is more like what BS is talking about with his four layers of 3/16 inch steel. The thing is that layering is good, but you still only get 36,000 psi you just get four layers of it. I have not done the math yet, but if you have a boat that weighs 36,000 pounds, which would not be at all out of line with a steel boat, I am guessing that when you factor in the speed and angle of the impact you get a good deal more than 36,000 psi, so the best thing to do with a steel hull remains the same as with any other hull....don't hit stuff. Now if Brent has some 1.8 million psi 3/16 inch steel somewhere he needs to start building pressure vessels and tanks with it, and maybe the military might like to have some too.

A36 is a standard low carbon steel, without advanced alloying.
As with most steels, A36 has a density of 7,800 kg/m3 (0.28 lb/cu in). Young's modulus for A36 steel is 200 GPa (29,000,000 psi).[2] A36 steel has a Poisson's ratio of 0.260, and a shear modulus of 79.3 GPa (11,500,000 psi).
A36 steel in plates, bars, and shapes with a thickness of less than 8 in (203 mm) has a minimum yield strength of 36,000 psi (250 MPa) and ultimate tensile strength of 58,000–80,000 psi (400–550 MPa). Plates thicker than 8 in have a 32,000 psi (220 MPa) yield strength and the same ultimate tensile strength.[1]
A36 bars and shapes maintain their ultimate strength up to 650°F. Afterward, the minimum strength drops off from 58,000 psi: 54,000 psi at 700°F; 45,000 psi at 750°F; 37,000 psi at 800°F. A36 steel has low carbon, that produce high strength to the alloy


Tensile strength and shear strength are not the same thing, and not only that, an impact exerts both tensile (pulling) and shear (cutting or tearing) forces on the point of impact and combined they will poke a hole in your boat. The hardness of the object impacted, the speed of the impact, the weight of the impacting object, and the angle of the impact along with some other factors are what determine the ultimate force of the impact, but steel, wood, concrete, fiberglass or a combination of all the above will not be enough to stop a sea container that fell off a ship from knocking a great big gaping sink your boat hole in the hull of a sailboat if you hit it at the right angle. Sailing a boat is not something that can ever be made 100% safe, there are risks involved, but the rewards far outweigh the risks, if I die while sailing I will have died doing something I enjoyed. If I die while sailing on a steel boat or a wooden boat I will still be dead.
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