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  #3711  
Old 02-13-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Unlike plastic ,people who want nothing but a metal boat, have far fewer options to choose from, which makes them easier to sell, at a better price. The market for steel boats is simply not as saturated as it is for plastic boats.
But the prices for your boats have fallen through the floor. We've seen plenty of actual evidence of that with all the ads we linked to above. Are you simply ignoring these facts?
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 02-13-2014 at 10:17 PM.
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  #3712  
Old 02-13-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Brent hate to disappoint you but there are more new aluminum sailboats circumnavigating now than steel. Unreliable is clearly a bogus statement. Also try to find an used Dystra aluminum boat for sale. They are snapped up for at or near ask rapidly. Face it Brent you are living in the past. Just like your statements grp boats are leaky. Well made grp boats don't leak and poorly fitted steel boats do. You don't leak through solid decks and hull but rather fittings, ports and other piercings. Hull material is irrelevant.
I have seen very few aluminum boats out cruising. They are rare.
GRP boats are all leaky, eventually. There is no bedding compound as reliable as simply welding gear down. Your claim that cleats , handrails, mooring bits, anchor winches, hatch hinges, stanchions , etc etc, bolted on a plastic deck can be as long term reliable and waterproof as welded down gear, is definitely bogus.
You truly live in a fantasy world of your imagination.
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  #3713  
Old 02-13-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by jak3b View Post
There was a time I was interested in building my own boat and doing the world cruising lifestyle thing but that time has passed. The Swainiac has cured me of all desire to build an Origami boat with his expansive attitude and salty charm.I love sailing though,I have done it all my life and will continue to do so till I physicaly can not.Of that I am sure.When I was a young un' I wanted to be Joshua Slocum or Bernard Moitessier and roam the oceans alone in my own boat that I built with my own hands.A solitary existance.I like people though.I get along with them.They are fun.City life can be fun to.I like all that his has to offer.I found that a balanced life is much more rewarding.I find long distance travel alot of fun in a jet.I can go any where in the world in about 24 hours or less.Stay in a nice hotel and eat good food I didnt have to cook.I get paid to work on boats,I like it,As far as materials I prefer to work with wood because it is a pleasent medium to work in.It smells good,Its beautiful.Not that it is 'better'.Everything has its place.Its all good in the long run.Something The Swainiac cant seem to wrap his mind around.
I remember in the early 70s, being anchored in Robinsons Cove, Moorea. I was in my early 20s, Most other cruisers took into their 60s to get where I was in my early 20s. I figured I must have been doing something right, if
I was where they spent an entire life to get to ( so briefly).I had a tourist brochure pinned to my bulkhead saying
"Tahiti special 7 days , $540 . I had left California months earlier with $350 , which took me to New Zealand. No way I would have been happy to work full time on the urban treadmill to spend 7 days on an island, then head back to work for the rest of the year. Bus loads of those who used the jet route cruised by. Do I believe they had more fun in 7 days than I had in 4 months ? Not a chance!
When the government pays me more money than I know what to do with, and it piles up, I will probably take jet plane trips to Cuba etc. I wont have to work the rest of the year. If I did, it still wouldn't be worth it.
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  #3714  
Old 02-13-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
...........
With steel hulls, the bulkheads become structurally irrelevant, ...
You can't generalize, it depends on the size and the design. European design practices often use smaller transverse primary frames with a secondary girder either side. The span of that girder is the run between bulkheads. Bulkheads compartmentalize a craft for flooding and fire control. over 50 feet and certainly by 60 feet it's very sensible to use bulkheads fore and aft of the engine bay, and one under the main mast and a maybe bulkhead fwd to isolate the forepeak.

With longitudinal primary stiffeners carried by secondary transverse frames the bulkhead is simply replaced with another transverse frame. But transverse frames are required to be stronger in way of the mast and that's where a bulkhead can be sensibly employed since it replaces both a compression post and a heavier more robust frame.
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  #3715  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

P.S. Brent- properly designed,flanged,bedded hull deck joints with close centers don't leak. They won't in the service life of the vessel even with our great,great,great grandchildren sailing on them. Bob's doing work for PSC now. Look at how the old California or newer n.carolina hull deck joints are put together . Never heard of a hull deck leak or with valiants or Morris or hinckley, nautor or outbound and on and on. Another bogus statement.
That's the problem. No one takes a hit on you. Steel boats have definite merits. You had a good idea thirty years ago. That was thirty years ago.Why do you make statements which are obviously untrue and depreciate others excellent work and the advances in sailboat development? Yes many old designs are still worth constructing as they meet the needs of a particular clientele. Want a small boat to cross oceans- a 28 foot Bristol Channel cutter is still a great choice and still in production. You harm yourself by stating obvious untruths. Accept Jeff is right. Strength for weight cf,fabric re inforced wood and even simple cold molded wood where plies are positioned in accordance to stresses are stronger then steel. Steel is homogeneous. These materials are not. That can be used to advantage. You only see the detriment.
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  #3716  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Yes bigger boats do need bulkheads, but not in the sizes I design, where they are structurally irrelevant. You can tell how much a boat is flexing by what it does to brittle fillers used on the interior. I have used oil based paint mixed with talc. Definitely not soft and flexible, yet after nearly 30 years of mostly full time cruising, including several Pacific crossings, it hasn't even cracked, which means almost zero movement.
The longitudinal girders on a hard chine boat are the chines ,hull deck joint, centreline, and in the case of my boats, the tank top -hull seam, all far stronger than any other form of girders. Curves make them many times stronger that flat ,straight ones.
Structural calculations which don't take the curve into account are meaningless.

Plywoo0d is anything but homogenous. Each veneer only has significant strength in one direction. With three piles you can only have one running in any one direction. Thus only 1/3rd the thickness has any relevant strength. Any loads on it in any direction can only run along the grain of one veneer, running unavoidably ACROSS the grain of the other two.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 02-18-2014 at 07:47 PM.
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  #3717  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Yes bigger boats do need bulkheads, but not in the sizes I design, where they are structurally irrelevant. You can tell how much a boat is flexing by what it does to brittle fillers used on the interior. I have used oil based paint mixed with talc. Definitely not soft and flexible, yet after nearly 30 years of mostly full time cruising, including several Pacific crossings, it hasn't even cracked, which means almost zero movement.
The longitudinal girders on a hard chine boat are the chines ,hull deck joint, centreline, and in the case of my boats, the tank top -hull seam, all far stronger than any other form of girders. Curves make them many times stronger that flat ,straight ones.
Structural calculations which don't take the curve into account are meaningless.
Many materials like your talc mixed with paint are more flexible than you think. Everything is flexible to some degree , its very likely that its more flexible that the steel which is very stiff. So probably not a great observation to use.

Deck edges and center-lines, keels and chines, coach roof sides.. whatever, are all longitudinal structures and are always considered so. Classification society rules even define how much of the chine you can count , what angle it needs to be to be considered structural and what the plate thickness should be in way of the chine if you use the chine as a longitudinal. All structural calculations take curvature into account. It's even in the class scantling calculations and has been for decades and you have had all this pointed out to you before.

Last edited by MikeJohns; 02-14-2014 at 05:42 AM.
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  #3718  
Old 02-14-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

A family friend was famous for his hilarious malapropisms. One of his best combined barking up the wrong tree with flogging a dead horse to come up with barking up a dead horses ass to express the ultimate in futility.

Seems apropos in the case of trying to convince BS of any technical info.
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  #3719  
Old 02-14-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent:
CATARI does not have a production boat style hull to deck joint. It is bonded with glass inside and out as is FRANCIS LEE. So many of your comments about this are not applicable. Not that facts would ever bother you.

As for the new hatch detail. I understand it makes you cranky when faced with design work worlds beyond you capability. No, you can't do it at this level. You just don't have the chops. But no sense being bitter. Relax and enjoy.


As for FRANCIS LEE's rudder. No worries there. It is all carbon fibre, sleaved at the bearings. It is massively strong, will never rust, is monococque and weighs only 80 lbs..
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-14-2014 at 07:43 AM.
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  #3720  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Looked back at construction details. Believe my hull deck is glassed in as well. Only water I've ever seen in the boat is from the groove in the mast and that only when the boat is in a slip facing stern to the wind in the rain.
Unfortunately JonB is right. You just can't get Brent to face reality. It's psychotic to try. One of the definitions of psychosis is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. To get Brent to realize there are Yugos and Mercedes. Lots of 20 year old MBs on the road doing just fine.
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