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  #3741  
Old 02-16-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Benesailor posted this new thread today.. with the links to the topic story (a fairly heavy displacement Brewer design done in Alu) and the subsequent links to the 'Restless' project, a large steel build it's an interesting comparison. Both back yard homebuilt over a period of time. Both varying degrees of astounding workmanship.

Amazing Homebuilt Sailboat
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  #3742  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

and what about two girls having built this steel one?:



Here the full story:

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Gilbert Caroff / Duflos

Have also a look at this one: Not bad for amateurs:

Velero Simbad: El "Simbad"

Velero Simbad: Nueva web de Gilbert Caroff

I find the design more modern even if I don't like the hull. It is an old design from an old designer, Gilbert Caroff. He has much better than that. He is certainly among the ones that have more boats built by amateurs in steel and aluminum (also built professionally). I see lots of them cruising here, mostly home built.

GILBERT CAROFF-DUFLOS - ARCHITECTURE NAVALE

Hundreds of designed boats, sailed everywhere from the Arctic to the Antarctic. Several expedition sailboats.

A nicer one, the Chatam 43:

Chatam 43 voilier en acier a l´unite


Here the building of a Chatam 40. Amazing amateur boat building quality :

Sur la mer avec "boulal" - sortie du hangar et mise à l'eau | boulal.travelblog.fr

Sur la mer avec "boulal" - construction | boulal.travelblog.fr

Here a 37 in steel being built. Also a nice design:

Notre bateau

Another one:

Photos 1

And another one, a 33ft (alu):

Preparatifs

Some pictures:























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  #3744  
Old 02-17-2014
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Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Have also a look at this one: Not bad for amateurs:

Velero Simbad: El "Simbad"

Velero Simbad: Nueva web de Gilbert Caroff

I find the design more modern even if I don't like the hull. It is an old design from an old designer, Gilbert Caroff. He has much better than that. He is certainly among the ones that have more boats built by amateurs in steel and aluminum (also built professionally). I see lots of them cruising here, mostly home built.
Paulo, I notice your selection are all chine hulls?? ...but there is absolutely no reason a steel hull - even an amateur-built one - must have chines.
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Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos

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Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
Paulo, I notice your selection are all chine hulls?? ...but there is absolutely no reason a steel hull - even an amateur-built one - must have chines.
Not true at all. I posted several steel boats on this thread without chines but they were not home built. Fact is that chines make the building much easier for an amateur and many (relatively) modern designs for the amateur boat builder have chines because they make building easier.

The previous post is about one of the most popular European designers for steel amateur boat building Gilbert Caroff, an old and famous one. In this case chines have not to do with a better performance but regarding making building easier. Even professional boat builders like Alubat - OVNI (alu) use chines as a building technique to make the boats easier to build and therefore cheaper since they, if well designed they don't take too much performance on a sailingboat (the ones that are not used expressly to increase performance on an otherwise rounded hull).

More about Caroff in a thread in MetalBoatbuilding:

"Gilbert Caroff (now semi-retired) has about 5000 boats of his design in the water, motor boats, canal boats and sailboats. He has made a speciality in exploratory and polar sailboats. He is well know for being the architect with the highest number of "civil" sailboat that have gone to the north pole, the antartic, and that have spend years in the ice and some even did the travel around the world through the north pole passages."

MetalBoatbuilding.org ? View topic - Gilbert Caroff-Duflos

Here, have a good look at a nice one with a rounded steel one, a Radford design. The difference is that for doing it this way you need a much more complex steel structure before putting the plates in. I am sure Brent or Mike can explain this to you in a much better way.





The same hull in an aluminium version:



Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-17-2014 at 08:26 AM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I'm curious what multi chine and radius chine means for strength. Brent has made much of curved structures being stronger. While I was looking in to this in a more detailed way some years ago a local potential supplier told me if supplied with the right cad/cam computer files there would be no issue delivering plates pre primed ( if in steel or corten) ad pre cut and even with appropriate beveling for welding for either multi chine or radius chine. Similarly pre cut framing was a non issue. Therefore, I don't fully appreciate Paulo's statement about difficulty given these cutting files were being used commonly over a decade ago to guide the plasma cutter or other technique to cut the metal before delivery to the builder. Personally just think the radius chine boats are prettier.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I had a builder of stewed boats tell me once that round bilge was easier than radiused chine. Not sure those are the same hulls Paulo posted. The alu one appears to have a chine aft. But it could just be a reflection I'm seeing. The steel boat certainly shows no chine.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

No, I don't think so. Radiused chine is a method for using many small chines to make a hull that looks like a rounded hull and that is not the case with those hulls.

Article - Radius chine metal boat building

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
... Therefore, I don't fully appreciate Paulo's statement about difficulty given these cutting files were being used commonly over a decade ago to guide the plasma cutter or other technique to cut the metal before delivery to the builder. Personally just think the radius chine boats are prettier.
I did not state anything like that. Just said that most steel or aluminium home boat builders use chined hulls, meaning boat plans with chined hulls. I assume that it is due to being cheaper or easier because they certainly know a lot more than me about building a metal boat, costs and hardships.

Regards

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Last edited by PCP; 02-17-2014 at 10:44 AM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I did not state anything like that. Just said that most steel or aluminium home boat builders use chined hulls, meaning boat plans with chined hulls. I assume that it is due to being cheaper or easier because they certainly know a lot more than me about building a metal boat, costs and hardships.
Paulo, whilst I don't doubt that "most" home boat builders might choose chined hulls for exactly the same reason that someone building a plywood yacht might choose a chined hull, the 50' steel yacht my parents had made and two of the local steel yachts here whose owners I know built their own boats (perhaps "amateur-built" is a better term than "home-built" for these yachts because they were all built in steel fabrication shops, not someone's back yard) are round bilge... because it makes a better, faster, nicer-looking boat - not because it's easier or cheaper.

..but then there are many, many round-bilge aluminium cruising and racing yachts at my club including at least one Petersen 43 and the 12-metre yacht 'Kookaburra II'. Perhaps, over here, aluminium and steel are just another yacht building material - it is not anything special.
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Last edited by Classic30; 02-17-2014 at 05:11 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I have to agree with Classic here. With a competant builder round bilge construction of steel or alu boats is just another day at the office. But home builders try to find the very easiest way to get the job done. They seldom have much experience and their choices are not always the best. You can build a nice chined boat. No problem with that. Chines are fine for some applications. If you think conic developement requires chines then go for it. But you boat will always look like an amateur effort. Some of the boats Paulo posted are far from fair.

In the end it's all about personal preference. I like them all when done well. I have no love affair with chines.
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