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  #3761  
Old 02-18-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

But there are some truly gorgeous pure cruising yachts in steel as well. Johnson Yachts in NZ has made quite a few- plasma cut, with rolled steel, no chines and pleasing to the eye. They build from Jay Benford or others plans. No reason you can't have a very handsome boat in steel.
Personally like the sterns on some of the Benford boats.
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Last edited by outbound; 02-18-2014 at 04:18 PM.
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  #3762  
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Re: François Lucas

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess I was not clear. I was not talking about boats built in a shipyard but home built boats, literally on the backyard on a shed. But there are many that build them with chines on a shipyard and again, all OVNI line, that is hugely popular and are obviously built on a shipyard and very professionally have chines. That allows them to reduce costs and the price of the boats without a significant loss in performance.

Anyway it is more of a aesthetic preference than anything else. Some years ago I didn't like it...now I am used to them.

Since we are talking about amateur boat building and I believe that it is the main market for steel boats as well as for some aluminium ones I would like to post about some French NA that design for amateurs (and shipyards alike) mainly in Alu but also in steel. I believe it makes sense on this thread.

I will begin with François Lucas and his Hermine series, very popular among amateurs and that can also be built professionally:

naval architect nantes yacht designer racing sailing yacht cruising yacht motor boat workboat Réalisations - Designs Croisière

........

Regarding these boats the chines are more a convenience in what regards building easiness but as they are very well designed their negative influence in what regards boat performance are negligible, if any.

This was the NA that many years ago started the "fashion" of chines on open boats. When all boats have rounded hulls he designed a Plywood 40 class racer with chines, not vertical ones like the chines on the 60's but kind of modern ones, like they are used now. Everybody started to make jokes about the boat as a racing boat and about him regarding saying that the chines the way they were designed on the hull would better the performance. Well, the jokes stooped when the boat start winning races...and everybody went back to the drawing board again trying to understand why.
Those wide sterns destroy directional stability, but twin rudders go a long way to making them far more controllable. Twin dagger boards in the stern, angled outwards at a similar angle, also work very well. They could be made out of squashed SS tubing ,their exits above the waterline, to minimize electrolysis.
Picture an anchor rode fouled on the aft end of one of those twin keels, with a strong beam wind, on a lee shore! There is no way you are going to get it unfouled. Cutting the anchor loose is your only option, something your mathematical calculations wont tell you about a keel shape. Only experience will tell you that, sometimes the hard way.
Excessive beam and shallow ballast mean an extremely low AVS. When those boats capsize, they stay capsized.

Last edited by Faster; 02-18-2014 at 08:38 PM. Reason: overlarge quote
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  #3763  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

With an inch and a half of sprayfoam in my boat, there is still a lot of space between the panelling and the foam. In the forepeak I filled it with canned foam , thru small holes drilled in the panelling, for more insulation. I plan to do the rest, over time . When you consider the temperature difference between the boiling hot coffee in a Styrofoam cup, and the temperature of the outside of the cup , such a thin layer of foam is a super insulator. Filling the space between panelling and foam can be a huge increase in insulation, at minimal cost. I am hoping to find an island source of "Tytan" foam , which I am told, is far more closed cell than most other brands.
With plastic hulls with a liner , filling the space between the liner and hull with canned foam could be a huge improvement in comfort, in cold latitudes.
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  #3764  
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Re: François Lucas

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
....
Excessive beam and shallow ballast mean an extremely low AVS. When those boats capsize, they stay capsized.
Several people have told you again and again that the AVS has not to do with beam but with a lower CG and you don't know the ballast those boats have. Shallow ballast only means that it has to have more ballast to compensate. Those boats are certified as class A by the RCD and that means that they have at least a reasonable AVS, I would say between 110º and 125º.

Besides you seem to ignore everything about what the French call a "deriveur". Those boats have an outstanding dynamic stability and are know to be among the safest bluewater boats. They are the boats the French prefer as voyage boats and the French are among the ones that travel and circumnavigate more and know one or two things about the best boats to do it.

Jimmy Cornell after having circumnavigated the planet several times in different types of sailboats ended up buying one, that he considered the best bluewater boat he had ever sailed. He has another one being built for him, for another circumnavigation, this time by the Northwest passage.

This is the more famous Polar exploration and scientific research sailboat, Tara ( ex- Antarctica) , an aluminium "Deriveur" designed by Luc Bouvet and Olivier Petit 25 years ago. The boat has sailed extensively since then in many expeditions and is still in active service.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_(g...niques_de_Tara





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Last edited by PCP; 02-18-2014 at 07:36 PM.
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  #3765  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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..

And I would/will, thank you (running out to buy $50M lottomax ticket

..
I enjoy enabling people to have a good boat, without having to win the lottery. Marine money grubbers call that" immoral!"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 02-18-2014 at 07:23 PM.
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  #3766  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
A glassed hull to deck joint is difficult to do and requires a lot of cosmentic work on the outside to hide the bonding layer. You could not do a production boat with this detail. But it is common on custom boats. It makes a great joint and proof again that Brent's constant lumping of all grp boats into one category is just plain ignorrant. But you have to give him credit. He does ignorrant very well.
Yes Batman , some plastic boats are much better than others. The Crealock 37 tried to do things properly in plastic, and the price tag came to over a quarter million dollars. Much greater strength and reliability in steel costs a fraction that amount.
Ignorant is trying to promote yourself and your plastic, on a subject like steel boats, which you know very little about.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Jon:
I did not know that but now you mention it I do recall that edge look. When I was a kid I went to visit John Brandelmayer. I showed him my work. He was not impressed.
All human progress comes from challenging "The way things are always done." Without anyone having the huevos to do so, we would still be in the stone age.
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  #3768  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I totally agree. I have to admit, I'm in absolute awe of his ignorance. It's amazing.

Seriously, though, I'm truly amazed that there are people out there who believe in him. I'm a member of his yahoo site and just have to shake my head. I guess it takes all kinds.
"Ignorance" is someone with only Catalina and Hunter experience, trying to mislead people, by advising on steel offshore cruising boats, something he knows absolutely nothing about.

On the subject of this thread, STEEL SAILBOATS , "Ignorance" is someone who has absolutely zero experience in building , long term cruising in, maintaining long term , or designing in steel, yet who spouts misleading advice on the subject.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 02-18-2014 at 07:19 PM.
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  #3769  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I wouldn't worry about it Bob. I was never much impressed with HIS design work. He built very good boats but his designs always looked to me like the carpenter designed houses I have alluded to in the past. Kind of handsome was about all one could say about the best of them.

If anyone reading this is uncertain of what I mean, compare a Norseman 447 to a Spencer 1330 - pretty similar boats in terms of basic design specs and build quality but the comparison ends there.
After building Bob's Reliance 37 , and being very disappointed with how they sailed, Malcolm Wilkinson bought the molds for the Spencers, and began building them, considering them far better cruising boats, after having sailed one from BC to New Zealand and back.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post


Playing with an idea to change the Dorade boxes from teak to white grp.
GRP is a far better material than teak. You could take a photo of a teak one, take it to the plastic guy and have him match the colour, and from 8 feet away you couldn't tell the difference.

What kind of price tag do you anticipate on that boat ?

Last edited by Brent Swain; 02-18-2014 at 07:24 PM.
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