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  #3811  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Amazing!
I takea few days off to go skiing and come back to find BS as angry and cranky as ever. He really souds like a broken record. I cant figure point what cogent point it is he is trying to make. It gets lost in his babble. His constant struggle with the truth is dissapointing. It has really gotten old. But not boring.

Don't ban him. Despite his constant bitter rants he is sort of funny in a pathetic way.
All his words will never provide what he needs to post a credible, professional design here. He's a very mediocre backyard boatbuilder with a bitter attitude and that's all.
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  #3812  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

BrentL
I'm curious. Exactly who are you talking about here? It can't be me and I'm very happy to post one of my structural drawings. "That designer has also, while criticizing my drawings, admitted that he provides only hull shape, leaving structural and other very important factors entirely up to the builder."



Maybe you could post one of your own strructural drawings and we can compare level of detail. Of course for this design the drawing posted is only one of several structural drawings. I dont have the others digitized.

I can post more if you want more proof but they will just intimidate you even more. So, once again, be careful before putting words into other people's mouths. In the end it will just display your own ignorance.
smackdaddy and jak3b like this.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-21-2014 at 10:07 AM.
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  #3813  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Amazing!
I takea few days off to go skiing and come back to find BS as angry and cranky as ever. He really souds like a broken record. I cant figure point what cogent point it is he is trying to make. It gets lost in his babble. His constant struggle with the truth is dissapointing. It has really gotten old. But not boring.

Don't ban him. Despite his constant bitter rants he is sort of funny in a pathetic way.
All his words will never provide what he needs to post a credible, professional design here. He's a very mediocre backyard boatbuilder with a bitter attitude and that's all.
Bob. ( grumpy old man) Your posts sound so bitter. Sadly your skiing didn't mellow you out any. Is that an idication of how much booze you consume on your skiing trips. The green stuff doesnt have that effect.
Are you claiming that 24 inch high stanchions held down with a few tiny bolts are strong enough and high enough,yet sch 40 stainless pipe welded down, with a solid top rail are not? You keep sugesting that wood and plastic boats are stronger than steel. Are you claiming that to point out the error in these suggestions can only be done out of anger? Are you suggesting that a happy person will just let bull slide, and continue to cause people problems, without bothering to warn them? Are you claiming that for anyone to point out such errors, they must be angry to do so?Yet you claim that I have problems with the truth?
You react very angrily to anyone challenging your self serving bull ,whenever anyone does. You are thus a very mediocre sample of an
'Advisor " on anything, let alone on steel boats, a subjetc you know very little about..
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  #3814  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
BrentL
I'm curious. Exactly who are you talking about here? It can't be me and I'm very happy to post one of my structural drawings. "That designer has also, while criticizing my drawings, admitted that he provides only hull shape, leaving structural and other very important factors entirely up to the builder."



Maybe you could post one of your own strructural drawings and we can compare level of detail. Of course for this design the drawing posted is only one of several structural drawings. I dont have the others digitized.

I can post more if you want more proof but they will just intimidate you even more. So, once again, be careful before putting words into other people's mouths. In the end it will just display your own ignorance.
That is one extremely, needlesly complex , time consuming and expensive boat to build.It is obviously designed by someone with zero hands on experince in building in steel .That is the kind of nonsense which turns a boat building project into a 20 year project while runniung the owner so deeply in debt that he cant use it for what a boat is for ,cruising time.
The benefit? Spending years of building time and paying for it time ,to only possibly save a couple of days on a passage . I see a huge amount of structuraly redundant steel in that drawing. All that centreline flat bar? The centrline of the hull plate is a huge longitudinal angle iron, structurally, and the keel and skeg sides are fully welded steel bulkheads on edge, making that flat bar structurally irrelevant .
The detail is to small to see ,but what is the cap on that bulwark? What do you use for deck longitudinals? As the deck edges shrink longitudinally, they do a lot to keep the decks from oilcanning. An extra inch in the cabintop camber makea a huge increase in stiffness and a huge decrease in the chance of disortion.

The side decks look a bit skimpy compared to what you usually do. I thought you knew better. I have always refused to do narrow side decks, which owners have always thanked me for later.
The complex compound shapes on those hull plates, easy to draw on paper ,by someone who will never have to make steel go in that shape, are a horrendous waste of time and money. They inevitably result in the use of a lot of filler, which means having to pamper your hull , eliminating a huge advantage of building in steel in the first place.

Chain plates running down the hull are another example of not being able to get out of wood and plastic boat thinking. A weld has 100% of ther strength of the metal. Once you have welded a long enough base on the chainplate to more than match the strength of the shroud, any further is a complete waste of time money and material.
One should bear in mind that in colder lattitudes ,(even on your side of the Strait of Want to Puka ,Bob) a piece of steel the size of your fingernail poking thru the spray foam will drip condensation continually, like a leaky faucett. Thus every bit of that redundant steel in this boat will have to be covered by a half inch of foam. The more steel ,the more covering you will have to do, and the more interior space gets eaten up. However, there is no need to cover foam inside of lockers. Don't let the spray foamer leave, until you have checked it several times, and have him touch up all the tiny spots he missed.
The more hard edges , and nooks and cranies in a boat ,the more maintenace it will take to keep paint on them. Simplifying drastically reduces maintenance on a steel boat.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 02-21-2014 at 03:10 PM.
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  #3815  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Boy Brent :
Your anger never ceases to maze me. You are a small man, bitter that you have never amounted to much and no one really cares.

"You keep sugesting that wood and plastic boats are stronger than steel."
Ok, Brent stop making things up. Now back up your words with the exact quote where I saisd that. But you can't because I never said that. But it's your style to invent the words of others. Brent's fantacy land. Maybe a reading comprehension issue.

Brent, when you are wrong you are really wrong.
For the record "expert":
"I see a huge amount of structuraly redundant steel in that drawing. All that centreline flat bar? The centrline of the hull plate is a huge longitudinal angle iron, structurally, and the keel and skeg sides are fully welded steel bulkheads on edge, making that flat bar structurally irrelevant "

This is an alu boat so your comments are worthless. Maybe you should actually study the drawings first next time before making your typically lame affort at rebutting.

Given what I see in the BS boats your comments have no relevance at all to what I do.

Like I say, post some of your own structural drawing. Let us judge. I'll bet now that you won't.

As for the origins of your constant anger and ranting. I don't think they have anything to do with yacht design. They are just you being you in your little way. I know lots of yacht designers We rib and kid each other all the time. We have good natured fun doing it while respecting what each designer does well. You don't fit in that group at all. We enjoy the diversity of the design products we produce. Diversity is fun. Not sure what group you fit in. I suspect none and that is part of your anger. You will never gain respect in that world only derision. Your words certainly are not going to gain you access into that world.

You are like a broken record of some very bad music.
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  #3816  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Hi Bob!
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  #3817  
Old 02-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Hey Assman! How's it going?
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  #3818  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yeah, but you're alone and bitter, stuck on a small boat day-in and day-out in the same stretch of water - braying for a government pension. What so "enlightened" about that? Seriously. That sounds horrible.

I'm perfectly happy doing what I do - having a pretty nice home - and sailing with my kids as much as I want to. It's a wonderful mix. Some might even call it "enlightened".
I cant think of anyone, especially married guys ,I would want to trade places with . ( the little head is no longer doing the thinking for the big one)I could be anywhere on the planet I wished to be ,but I am exactly where I choose to be, here in Paradise. Last time I left Tonga, a Portugese cruiser said "You are leaving paradise?" I told him " No . I am leaving Tonga , going to paradise : BC." I still had several months left on my visa, and no shortage of money.
No braying needed for pension .You get it whether you want it or not. Allen Farrel said he was getting far more than he needed. He asked if he could give it back and the govt said "No way!" I told him' "Take every penny they will give you .Then, you can decide who needs it and who to give it to, not them . They would give it to the rich, as they always have done."
Committing totally senseless random acts of kindness is the most pleasure one can get out of money.
Suns beating down, days are warmer and getting longer , summer is ahead of us, missed a beatutiful westerly to get me down the strait yesterday ,but they become more common this time of year, so I'll have another soon, and will continue to enjoy them ,while those who go the Smack route will be in urban traffic jams, trying to obtain the money needed to follow bad advice. It has been a much warmer and dryer winter than I can remember ,while the arctic vortex just keeps sending all that arctic air skedaddling on down to Texas. Does life get any better?
I can always spoil other peoples kids rotten which I have often striven to do (something my father taught me to enjoy). He and one old Swede down the road , took us kids camping ,swimming, hunting , fishing , while other parents did nothing. Their loss.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 02-21-2014 at 03:33 PM.
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  #3819  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Are you claiming that 24 inch high stanchions held down with a few tiny bolts are strong enough and high enough,yet sch 40 stainless pipe welded down, with a solid top rail are not?
Strong enough for what exactly? See this is your main problem - you have no calculations to define what "strong" means. So you just guess. Always.

Are 24" bolted stanchions strong enough to keep a person or persons aboard the boat if they fall against them? Absolutely. That's why you see them everywhere.

Are they strong enough to withstand "pounding in 12' surf on a Mexican beach for 6 months with zero damage"? Hell no. But neither is your schedule 40 stainless pipe welded down with a solid top rail. Your stanchions and liferails are "way too weak and flimsy" for that. I wouldn't trust them at all for that job.

See? Your question and comparison means nothing. It's all about the intended function - and the force calculations behind that intended function. You don't know any of that stuff. So you just look silly talking about it...especially with guys like Bob or Mike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
You keep sugesting that wood and plastic boats are stronger than steel. Are you claiming that to point out the error in these suggestions can only be done out of anger? Are you suggesting that a happy person will just let bull slide, and continue to cause people problems, without bothering to warn them? Are you claiming that for anyone to point out such errors, they must be angry to do so?Yet you claim that I have problems with the truth?.
If a dude is wrong, he's wrong. No anger required. You're really the only person continually coming across as angry. Bob has provided evidence for EVERYTHING he's said. You are COMPLETELY unable to back up ANYTHING you say with ANY evidence whatsoever. And it's becoming clear as day to everyone that you have nothing at all to back up your claims...because they are just plain wrong or false.

So, you're really going after the wrong guy here dude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
You react very angrily to anyone challenging your self serving bull ,whenever anyone does. You are thus a very mediocre sample of an
'Advisor " on anything, let alone on steel boats, a subjetc you know very little about..
Actually, at the end of the day, it appears that you know very little about boats yourself...steel or otherwise. Your advice is simply on a "trust me" basis - and we all see how that's gone.
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  #3820  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Oh Brent. It's hard for you to understand someone being ironic - especially with multiple Steves running around your already crowded head. So let me break it down...

Steve (the Steve of Silas Crosby, not the me Steve) is the one saying you're wrong about the lifeline height. I showed you his entry on his blog. He says they're 36" period. No gymnastics required. 36". You keep saying he's lying about that. I don't believe you. I think Steve's probably pretty honest (both of them). He has some credibility. You don't. That much has been proven in this thread.

Now, this is the first place where you should, indeed, stand corrected. Now comes the irony...and the second place you should stand corrected.

I think 36" life lines or life rails are utterly stupid. In fact, they are dangerous on a cruising boat. Why? They encourage walking upright on a foredeck like a jackass - which you should never do in a seaway. You should be low and clipped in.

Now, when you are low and clipped in as you should be, the standard height lifelines are perfect. It would be very, very easy to squirt through the utterly silly span of a 36" rail with a single line at 18".

So, you're wrong about the rail height on the Silas Crosby. You stand corrected. And you're wrong about me saying that 34" is far too low. It's just as ridiculous as 36" (this is the irony part). Again, you stand corrected.

Yes, you do things different from everyone else in the boat design world. And it's still wrong.



Oh lord. He didn't really just say that did he?
Lifeline heights vary widely among stock boats ,usually low, to increase profits and reduce costs.
The lifelines on the 36, after 16 days if pounding on a Mexican beach, were totally undamaged ,as anyone can see in the photos. The crew getting her off, said they were waist deep on the foredeck ,and would have all been washed overbaord by the first wave ,had they had the dinky little yachtie lifelines which Smack advocates.
24 inch high plastic coated trip wires are more likely to keep you aboard than 35 inch high solid lifelines? Where does a hair brained theory like that leave Smacks credibility?
ZERO!
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 02-21-2014 at 03:44 PM.
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