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  #3861  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I think this photo shows how fair our PSC hull is taken out of a CNC female mold.
Look at the reflection of the gang in the topsides.
Friends were quoted $40K (ie giving up ten years of cruising funds)to put a finish like that on one of my boats.They laughed, and opted for the ten years of cruising, instead of blowing money and playtime to impress inexperienced, naive people with landlubber priorities. Sailing is more fun.
People with little cruising experence have nothing else to judge a boat by but shinyness. They have no hands on experience with practical considerations.
Such priorities are landlubber values , defined as "spending money you dont have, to buy things you dont need, to impress people you dont like."

I'd rather be sailing!
I once had a bumper sticker which read ."Work is for people who dont know how to sail"
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  #3862  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
The photos section of the origamiboats site is full of brentboats which are far better loking far better looking than a tubby Tayana.
That is what is known in literature as Hubris
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  #3863  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I am not capable of designing for unskilled home builders. Dudley Dix is very good at that.
We agree on that. You are not capable of designing for home builders. I think designing for home builders requires the designer to have been a home builder, and worked on back yard boats. Steel is far easier for unskilled home builders to deal with than plastic. Its far more forgiving, quicker , and far cheaper.
We are definitely not in the same market.

Last edited by Brent Swain; 02-23-2014 at 02:10 PM.
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  #3864  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Cruising on $4K a year? I presume that all happened in the 70's. Or earlier - I remember books in the late 60's with titles like Europe on $10 a day. That was $3650 a year 45 years ago, with no boat to keep up and was directed at starving students backpacking and hitchhiking their way around.

Nowadays you'd have to work very hard at living cheap to last more than 3 years on $40K.
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  #3865  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"Go back and read thru the posts, where several people, not necessarily you, have freequently claimed that wood and plastic boats were stronger than steel. "

You see Brent, there you go again. You clearly post that I said that. Then you post that "not necessarily you" said that. You just invent quotes to suit and in doing so you make yourself out to be a liar and with no help from anyone else you destroy your credibility.

I'm sure 95% of the "facts" you post are pure BS.

"Mine sacrifice little in the way of aesthetics "
But Brent your eye for aesthetics is severely deficient. Why should anyone pay attention to what you think is good looking when our own boats are living proof that you have no eye for aesthetics. We can plainly see what you think "good looking" is.
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  #3866  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
..................
But Brent your eye for aesthetics is severely deficient. Why should anyone pay attention to what you think is good looking when our own boats are living proof that you have no eye for aesthetics. We can plainly see what you think "good looking" is.
Care and craftsmanship and Brent are not bedfellows. For Brent to comment on aesthetics is a joke.

When you look closely at Brent's boat building you quickly see he's not at all interested in quality or longevity, only speed of construction. In the process he hacks a hull together with the poorest quality you will ever see from a boat builder. His detailing is abysmal and his welding is shocking which is why he’s so fast.


A good impartial comment from an intelligent observer ( Another Tom not the same one who found Brent cabin tops deficient in my last post )) is worth reading. It's a response to viewing the promotional origami video where Brent puts Alex’s boat together. This video sent what are best described as shock waves through the steel boat building community as Brent hacks the boat together with no symmetry and ill fiting parts and the worst welding you will ever witness. This puts it quite succinctly:

What struck me the most was the incredible lack of care and craftsmanship Brent showed in building Alex’s hull and the utter illogicality of it. It was stunning. I mean, he’s been hired to build someone’s dream boat, presumably because they don’t have the knowledge and experience to do it themselves which means they’re putting their faith in his abilities. He’s the “professional“ in this equation and his customers are hanging their hopes and dreams on him. In this case he was hired to build ON VIDEO; there’s $10k worth of material sitting on the ground… and he set about butchering it in a slapdash fashion that would get him fired from any jobsite in the world. I was amazed. I wouldn’t put together a barnyard gate without grinding the torch cut edges but Brent apparently builds entire hulls that way. It’s incredibly bad practice and there’s absolutely no reason for it. Brent, your “cost of labour" excuse doesn't fly because if money was an issue you could have simply had Alex grind the plate edges himself and call you when he was done, it would’ve taken a day; but of course you didn’t and he didn’t know any better. Your “6011 burns through slag” excuse is baloney, yeah it does but the likelihood of slag inclusions is far greater than with clean edges and since below the waterline welds are pretty damn critical what on earth is wrong with doing the safest, soundest job possible? Are you seriously going to argue that spending an extra day grinding is going to “cost someone their cruising dreams”? What a tired meme.

When you drew the plate shapes it looks like you mostly eyeballed it with with a batten which explains why the edges didn’t match up when you pulled them together to create the half-hulls, and why you had to cut an oblong piece out on each side to get the edges to match up. Assuming your drawings are accurate Alex could have lofted the plate shapes himself and done a perfect job of it but he apparently didn’t know any better and you’re on video telling him it’s totally normal, nothing to worry about. Who knows what that did to the lines of that boat compared to “as designed”, again assuming your drawings are accurate.

When you joined the half-hulls you apparently didn’t join them at the same relative point at the stem because once the centerline was welded up one half-hull had a noticeable overhang at the stern which you simply cut off. You also had to warp the bow over to one side with a come-a-long to get the stem to match up. In your book you write “If the plate for one side of the hull matches perfectly the plate for the other side of the hull – and they all attach to one another at the same relative points, it’s geometrically impossible for the hull to be anything but symmetrical” Well, by the same principle that hull is permanently warped, for no good reason. How much effort would it have been to take a piece of string and measure down each half-hull at the stem and scribe an accurate mark for joining them? Apparently too much. I’m running out of adjectives to describe how bad your work is here but suffice it to say; if I had welded a truck body that was 2” out of square when I was working that job I’d have had to fix it. If I’d tried to argue that it didn’t matter because it’s “just a truck box” I would have been fired and rightly so. You only get away with this appalling standard of work because you prey on people who don’t know any better.

That brings me to the worst part of this whole thing. Throughout the whole video you can feel Alex’s enthusiasm about getting his boat built and thinking he’s getting a good deal. I feel sorry for him because he seems like a nice guy who deserved a lot better. It’s sad that he’s tied his name to your “work”. You’re constantly going around accusing people of taking advantage of other people’s ignorance to make a buck but it is you who does this very thing constantly! It’s your entire business model! Your economics are provably false. What sound money saving advice you give (building your own deck hardware, used engines, etc.) is hardly exclusive to origami building. Your wacky class warfare narrative is illogical and I think it’s only an excuse to feed your messiah complex. I feel bad for anyone who has fallen under your spell, I would have if I wasn’t lucky enough to have some fabrication background. It was the video that gave me pause, I couldn’t trust someone who did work like that, I wasn’t even aware of the structural issues until I started reading these threads. Like most people who read your book I have no engineering background at all so your structural approach sounded logical. But even I can easily follow the thought experiments that the professionals on here have posted (thank you!) and see where you are in error; which makes your profound incuriosity all the more troubling. And it’s all so senseless because none of the people who know are saying origami in itself is a bad idea but you’re wedded to your narrative and apparently determined to stay out there on your branch; sawing away…

reproduced from: Origami steel yacht construction - Page 24 - Boat Design Forums

I posted some stills of his fit-up and welding here:
Origami steel yacht construction - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums
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  #3867  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Friends were quoted $40K (ie giving up ten years of cruising funds)...
This is actually helpful - to see Brent's general calculus on the cost of building one of his boats.

So, cruising wannabe, it will take at least 10 years of cruising funds out of your kitty and, judging by the average time for people building these boats (from their blogs, etc.), another 3-10 years of your life for the build (PLUS the money to support yourself during those years).

All this before you ever splash the thing and actually start cruising. It's a horrible way to go.

It makes far more sense to buy one of the many, many used fiberglass boats on the market and just get out there and do it. You'll save TONS of money and hardship.

And the chances of you hitting Fukushima Debris and sinking are about the same as stepping off the curb in front of a bus. Do you stay awake at night and worry about that? I didn't think so

If you are super paranoid, there are plenty of BS Yachts on the market that you could pick up for less than $20K!! That's dirt cheap - if you can live with the roughness! Sure, the people who actually built it will be losing their shirts - but at least you won't be the sucker.

I think Brent himself says it best:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I'd rather be sailing!
I once had a bumper sticker which read ."Work is for people who dont know how to sail"
Building a boat is a hell of a lot of work. So listen to the man! Buy a used boat, and go sail. Never build one. That's just insane.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 02-22-2014 at 08:54 PM.
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  #3868  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
Care and craftsmanship and Brent are not bedfellows. For Brent to comment on aesthetics is a joke.

When you look closely at Brent's boat building you quickly see he's not at all interested in quality or longevity, only speed of construction. In the process he hacks a hull together with the poorest quality you will ever see from a boat builder. His detailing is abysmal and his welding is shocking which is why he’s so fast.


A good impartial comment from an intelligent observer ( Another Tom not the same one who found Brent cabin tops deficient in my last post )) is worth reading. It's a response to viewing the promotional origami video where Brent puts Alex’s boat together. This video sent what are best described as shock waves through the steel boat building community as Brent hacks the boat together with no symmetry and ill fiting parts and the worst welding you will ever witness. This puts it quite succinctly:

What struck me the most was the incredible lack of care and craftsmanship Brent showed in building Alex’s hull and the utter illogicality of it. It was stunning. I mean, he’s been hired to build someone’s dream boat, presumably because they don’t have the knowledge and experience to do it themselves which means they’re putting their faith in his abilities. He’s the “professional“ in this equation and his customers are hanging their hopes and dreams on him. In this case he was hired to build ON VIDEO; there’s $10k worth of material sitting on the ground… and he set about butchering it in a slapdash fashion that would get him fired from any jobsite in the world. I was amazed. I wouldn’t put together a barnyard gate without grinding the torch cut edges but Brent apparently builds entire hulls that way. It’s incredibly bad practice and there’s absolutely no reason for it. Brent, your “cost of labour" excuse doesn't fly because if money was an issue you could have simply had Alex grind the plate edges himself and call you when he was done, it would’ve taken a day; but of course you didn’t and he didn’t know any better. Your “6011 burns through slag” excuse is baloney, yeah it does but the likelihood of slag inclusions is far greater than with clean edges and since below the waterline welds are pretty damn critical what on earth is wrong with doing the safest, soundest job possible? Are you seriously going to argue that spending an extra day grinding is going to “cost someone their cruising dreams”? What a tired meme.

When you drew the plate shapes it looks like you mostly eyeballed it with with a batten which explains why the edges didn’t match up when you pulled them together to create the half-hulls, and why you had to cut an oblong piece out on each side to get the edges to match up. Assuming your drawings are accurate Alex could have lofted the plate shapes himself and done a perfect job of it but he apparently didn’t know any better and you’re on video telling him it’s totally normal, nothing to worry about. Who knows what that did to the lines of that boat compared to “as designed”, again assuming your drawings are accurate.

When you joined the half-hulls you apparently didn’t join them at the same relative point at the stem because once the centerline was welded up one half-hull had a noticeable overhang at the stern which you simply cut off. You also had to warp the bow over to one side with a come-a-long to get the stem to match up. In your book you write “If the plate for one side of the hull matches perfectly the plate for the other side of the hull – and they all attach to one another at the same relative points, it’s geometrically impossible for the hull to be anything but symmetrical” Well, by the same principle that hull is permanently warped, for no good reason. How much effort would it have been to take a piece of string and measure down each half-hull at the stem and scribe an accurate mark for joining them? Apparently too much. I’m running out of adjectives to describe how bad your work is here but suffice it to say; if I had welded a truck body that was 2” out of square when I was working that job I’d have had to fix it. If I’d tried to argue that it didn’t matter because it’s “just a truck box” I would have been fired and rightly so. You only get away with this appalling standard of work because you prey on people who don’t know any better.

That brings me to the worst part of this whole thing. Throughout the whole video you can feel Alex’s enthusiasm about getting his boat built and thinking he’s getting a good deal. I feel sorry for him because he seems like a nice guy who deserved a lot better. It’s sad that he’s tied his name to your “work”. You’re constantly going around accusing people of taking advantage of other people’s ignorance to make a buck but it is you who does this very thing constantly! It’s your entire business model! Your economics are provably false. What sound money saving advice you give (building your own deck hardware, used engines, etc.) is hardly exclusive to origami building. Your wacky class warfare narrative is illogical and I think it’s only an excuse to feed your messiah complex. I feel bad for anyone who has fallen under your spell, I would have if I wasn’t lucky enough to have some fabrication background. It was the video that gave me pause, I couldn’t trust someone who did work like that, I wasn’t even aware of the structural issues until I started reading these threads. Like most people who read your book I have no engineering background at all so your structural approach sounded logical. But even I can easily follow the thought experiments that the professionals on here have posted (thank you!) and see where you are in error; which makes your profound incuriosity all the more troubling. And it’s all so senseless because none of the people who know are saying origami in itself is a bad idea but you’re wedded to your narrative and apparently determined to stay out there on your branch; sawing away…

reproduced from: Origami steel yacht construction - Page 24 - Boat Design Forums

I posted some stills of his fit-up and welding here:
Origami steel yacht construction - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums
This is actually the best write up I've seen thus far of Brent's methods - with actual proof from the DVD and his book.

Apart from the fun back-and-forth with Brent in this thread - there is a much bigger issue. I actually think he is dangerous. Seriously. He presents himself as a professional, as is stated above, to newbs who don't know any better. Those people turn to Brent purely because of cost and "speed" - and because of his assurance he's got the answers. They seem to think they have no other choice. And, being complete amateurs, they can't see what the ACTUAL professionals see in his sub-par methods. The newbs believe him. And, after everything I've seen in this thread, I honestly think that's dangerous.


Brent's own build quality for his customer.

That's why I just can't stay away. It's not about arguing yacht design (which I'm certainly not qualified to do) - it's about making sure people know that, as shown by the pros who know, Brent's advice and methods appear to be far from professional. No newb should have to learn that the hard way.

For me, this is the real take-away from all this BS Yachts debate:

Quote:
You’re constantly going around accusing people of taking advantage of other people’s ignorance to make a buck but it is you who does this very thing constantly! It’s your entire business model!
Caveat Emptor.
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  #3869  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Smackers/John:
I think that is an amazing testimony to what some of us have been trying to say all along.
It's quite depressing.

On a happier note:
I picked up my "intern" at the airport this morning. His family is world cruising in their Halberg-Rassy and Will flew here from Panama to do two weeks of intensive, often abusive, work with me. I have a 16 year old kid in the house, again. How lucky can one man be? Photos to follow. I am already making him wear a Scottish bonnet. The poor kid is freezing. I gave him one of my Pendleton shirts to wear and for God's sake, some socks.
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  #3870  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

After sitting in my backyard fir over 15 years thought it time to remove and replace metal. Keel has 6000 lbs lead. Used tire weights with metal clips melted off poured in.
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