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  #4081  
Old 03-13-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Then have fun with steve music and corn squeezes.
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  #4082  
Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"Then you stat another absurdity that a small heavy hull is as fast as a lighter well executed design."

I don't think Brent knows very much about the current state of yacht performance. He's been out of the loop for way too many years. I sincerely doubt he's ever sailed a high performance boat. He knows nothing about them. He uses used sails and mains with no battens. "Fast" is very easily defined. Just look around. I would guess that the FT10m or even the FT7.5m could literally sail circles around any of his boats on any day. Brent may want to define his terms a little more specifically, narrow the criteria down a bit or he'll just end up looking uninformed again.

I'd love to take him out on an Ft10m in a breeze. Maybe ICON light air day. Maybe STEALTH CHICKEN on a blast reach. I'd show him some boat speed.
Or you could race a steel boat around Cape Horn in a storm, to show him how much faster your fragile cockle shell is. Or maybe cross an ocean in one, fully loaded, for a years worth of cruising off the beaten path, where you have to carry all your supplies and spares, along with tools.
Most well equipped cruisers I have met offshore, average about the same passage times.

Ask any of the long term, short handed cruisers in Hawaii, in boats under 40 feet , if they did any better than 14 days from the mainland. That is the speed I am referring to, not a fair weather, flat water sail, in a striped out, empty, fragile cockle shell, around the buoys ( most of Bobs " Cruising " experience.)
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 03-17-2014 at 06:15 PM.
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  #4083  
Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

When detailing a steel boat, it is far easier and safer to grind parts AFTER they have been welded down ( grinders can be dangerous). Thus, the only parts which have to be ground before welding them down, are parts which are inaccessible to a grinder, once they have been welded down. Thus welding parts down and grinding later is the INTELLIGENT way of doing things, while advocating the opposite is the opposite of intelligence, as is criticizing doing things the safe and intelligent way .
There is nothing more pointless than polishing that which will end up buried in foam, and never seen again. That is what turns an affordable, one year project into a ten year plus, super expensive project.
As plastic boats are made of petroleum products, showing a part of a steel boat in its early stage and criticizing it for not being polished enough ,before it has been ground and finished, is like pointing to an oil slick and saying "Man, what an ugly plastic boat!" or showing a rough cut piece of wood, or a log, and saying " Man, what poor boat building, or cabinet making."
People trying to deceive, often resort to such quite infantile grasping at straws. Such people are a useless, and expensive source of advice. They are not the ones doing your work nor paying your bills.

One should never let childish "Yachtie" snobbery cut into ones cruising time and budget.
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 03-17-2014 at 07:15 PM.
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  #4084  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I just had a look at page ten of the February issue of Pacific Yachting. There is a good photo of how to make a sliding hatch into a proper door.
The one in the photo could have been made longer, the same size as the original opening , or a cupola on top could have made it even larger. It could easily be made up on a work bench, and installed in a couple of hours. Aluminium would be the ultimate material for such a door.
I just saw the same photo on page 5 of the latest copy of "Ocean Navigator."
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Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
That is the speed I am referring to, not a fair weather, flat water sail, in a striped out, empty, fragile cockle shell, around the buoys ( most of Bobs " Cruising " experience.)
How exactly do you know what Bob's "Cruising" experience is? You've gotten most of your other assumptions about him wrong (no experience in metal boats, etc.) so I'm not sure how you can be so certain of anything anymore.

As for this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
One should never let childish "Yachtie" snobbery cut into ones cruising time and budget.
I totally agree. And I would just add that one should also never let childish "steel boat" snobbery cut into one's cruising time and budget by actually building one.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 03-17-2014 at 07:05 PM.
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  #4086  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I remember reading an interview with Bob in an overnight race a while back ,in which he was asked what was the longest he had ever been out. His reply was "Dunno, how long have we been out?"
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  #4087  
Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

It would be nice if we could get an another boat builder into this discussion that builds in steel. At this point, I probably wouldn't believe Brent if he told me the sun would rise tomorrow. I haven't really considered a steel boat but since the only "facts" that have been presented by the "ONLY person with extensive experience in designing, building, and cruising in steel boats" have been (I've heard Brent preach that till I almost typing it) "some friend that said" or that they are indestructible (which I laugh at every time I read it) with many negative comments about how weak every other material is, how inept every other designer is, and how greedy every other builder is. Jeez! WTH!

It would be nice to hear the actual pro's and con's of a small boat built in steel. Brent, I'm sure you will have something smart to say but I'll tell you this. ABSOLUTELY NO MATERIAL KNOWN TO MAN IS PERFECT FOR EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION!!!! Say what you want but I'm right on this and you know it, even if you wont admit it.

So here is a challenge; Since you are suppose to know more about steel than any other man alive, list me 3 con's of building a small boat in steel. I'll ask Bob Perry to do the same with fiberglass. Unless I've totally misjudged him, I'm willing to bet that Bob recognizes both the strengths AND the weaknesses of whatever material he designs for. Are you?
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

On big con is getting all the disinformation attacks from plastic boat disciples, who know nothing about steel.
Yes it is heavier. Wish it was lighter, but the weight difference is far less than the differences in the weigh of gear any two cruisers will put aboard.
Yes it can corrode, and needs a a bit of paint touch up from time to time. These are far outweighed by the advantages of steel for full time cruising. Occasional weekend cruisers and marina queens don't enjoy the full benefits of steel.
Seeing how those with zero hands on experience are constantly attacking the only one here who has a lot of steel boat experience, is a serious deterrent to anyone with steel boat experience posting anything here. Many have told me that is why they don't take part . It is why some great designers gave up on BD.Net, leaving only amateurs and trolls to control the debate there, rendering the site useless for steel boat information..
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 03-17-2014 at 07:40 PM.
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  #4089  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
On big con is getting all the disinformation attacks from plastic boat disciples, who know nothing about steel.
Yes it is heavier. Wish it was lighter, but the weight difference is far less than the differences in the weigh of gear any two cruisers will put aboard.
Yes it can corrode, and needs a a bit of paint touch up from time to time. These are far outweighed by the advantages of steel for full time cruising. Occasional weekend cruisers and marina queens don't enjoy the full benefits of steel.
Seeing how those with zero hands on experience are constantly attacking the only one here who has a lot of steel boat experience, is a serious deterrent to anyone with steel boat experience posting anything here. Many have told me that is why they don't take part . It is why some great designers gave up on BD.Net, leaving only amateurs and trolls to control the debate there, rendering the site useless for steel boat information..
Well, that's two. Weight and corrosion. I'm not counting the disinformation because you have been just as guilty of that. As far as people attacking you.... Have you noticed that when you give those little tidbits of experience and DONT cram your experience down everyone's throat or try to put down other peoples knowledge, experience, or preferred building material, that even the likes of Bob Perry compliments you. At least to me, that is experience talking and worth listening to. But when you make claims that even someone with my limited knowledge question, and someone asks you to back that claim up, you either can't or won't, and then proceed to toot your experience, dismiss them as amateurs, and claim you're being attacked.

So, do you have a third con?

What limitations does the extra weight put on your design?

I think you gave some good info many pages back on how to control corrosion on the inside of the hull.
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  #4090  
Old 03-18-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Wow. Just, wow. I read this entire thread. I signed up to see who was going to give me the hours of my life back. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
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