Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 413 - SailNet Community
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post #4121 of 5317 Old 03-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I will love to see the photos, and hear how she sails.

Jeff
I will make them available at a reasonable price. Also comparative stern wake videos for the 1D35 vs Francis Lee. That will be interesting....

Big fat butt vs. Perry double ender

Remember, Bob and Kim.. You will owe us 42 seconds a mile!

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post #4122 of 5317 Old 03-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
This just popped up as the Featured Sailboat of the week:

31' Custom steel Brent Swain 31

Volvo MD2 diesel, Balmar high out alternator with ARS 4 multi-stage external regulator. Electronics: Furuno 1623 Radar, Garmin 188C Plotter, Raymarine ST-1000 autopilot, West Marine VHS 600 w/DSC, Si-Tex SSB receiver, BlueSea 13 position distribution panel, Xantrex battery monitor.Lot's of tools spare parts, list too long to list. Just had boat hauled, bottom striped to bare metal, rust treatment, pre-primer, 2 coats primer, 2 coats of anti-fouling paint. New deck painted with anti skid paint.New zinks on hull,shaft, and rudder. Total spent this week $4,000.00 Feb. 10, 2014 Asking price reduced from $25,000.00 to $23,000.00 This is a great boat for a young couple looking for a 2 to 4 year adventure in Carribean. Xenos is located in a rented slip in Marina Majax on Isla Mujeres, Cancun, Mexico The marina is in the best Hurricane hole in the Western Caribbean. The slip rent is $300.00 per month, this includes water and WiFi. Cancun airport to boat is 1 hr. & 15 min.
Located in Isla Mujeres Cancun Mexico, Outside United States.
For information, call: (404) 372-6929
View Contact Information and Full Details »

Length: 31' Year: 1995 Asking: $23,000
For much of my cruising, I never had a diesel , watermaker, SSB ,autopilot, etc. I have used alternators which I got for free out of scrap piles. I have never had a chart plotter, battery monitor or distribution panel, nor 3 stage alternaor regulator. I have only paid for a haul out twice in over 40 years, costing me $200 each time .
As George worked for West Marine while building this boat, he probably got the nicked and dinged items ,which were perfectly good, but couldn't be sold for cosmetic reasons ,super cheap or free.
Suggesting all cruisers will incur the cost of these items, is like suggesting that as one Cadilac has air conditioning and satelite TV, all car owners will incur the cost of them.
Anyone so deceptive is not a good source of any advice.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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post #4123 of 5317 Old 03-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
This just popped up as the Featured Sailboat of the week:

31' Custom steel Brent Swain 31

Volvo MD2 diesel, Balmar high out alternator with ARS 4 multi-stage external regulator. Electronics: Furuno 1623 Radar, Garmin 188C Plotter, Raymarine ST-1000 autopilot, West Marine VHS 600 w/DSC, Si-Tex SSB receiver, BlueSea 13 position distribution panel, Xantrex battery monitor.Lot's of tools spare parts, list too long to list. Just had boat hauled, bottom striped to bare metal, rust treatment, pre-primer, 2 coats primer, 2 coats of anti-fouling paint. New deck painted with anti skid paint.New zinks on hull,shaft, and rudder. Total spent this week $4,000.00 Feb. 10, 2014 Asking price reduced from $25,000.00 to $23,000.00 This is a great boat for a young couple looking for a 2 to 4 year adventure in Carribean. Xenos is located in a rented slip in Marina Majax on Isla Mujeres, Cancun, Mexico The marina is in the best Hurricane hole in the Western Caribbean. The slip rent is $300.00 per month, this includes water and WiFi. Cancun airport to boat is 1 hr. & 15 min.
Located in Isla Mujeres Cancun Mexico, Outside United States.
For information, call: (404) 372-6929
View Contact Information and Full Details »

Length: 31' Year: 1995 Asking: $23,000
For much of my cruising, I never had a diesel , watermaker, SSB ,autopilot, etc. I have used alternators which I got for free out of scrap piles. I have never had a chart plotter, battery monitor or distribution panel, nor 3 stage alternaor regulator. I have only paid for a haul out twice in over 40 years, costing me $200 each time .
As George worked for West Marine while building this boat, he probably got the nicked and dinged items ,which were perfectly good, but couldn't be sold for cosmetic reasons ,super cheap or free.
Suggesting all cruisers will incur the cost of these items, is like suggesting that as one Cadilac has air conditioning and satelite TV, all car owners will incur the cost of them.
Anyone so deceptive is not a good source of any advice.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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post #4124 of 5317 Old 03-21-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Brent- Have any of your boats gotten a PHRF rating? Id so please share. Please note your absence of answering basic questions by several people multiple times is also apparently viewed as deceptive by many.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
"Solo sailor Andrew Halcrow was airlifted by a Chilean Navy helicopter from his 32ft steel yacht on March 8th after he was dismasted in breaking seas west of Cape Horn. "

From cruising compass.

Not always the hull that matters. Read reports seems dismastings, blow out portlights, inversions/knock downs, crew fatigue and injuries/illness etc. as likely or more likely scenarios for boat abandonment. This is reason I have repetitively asked Brent for statistics on RM, point of vanishing stability, GS graph etc. In absence of same his statements of sea worthiness are simple hearsay.
Reminds one of the 79 Fastnet, where boats with nothing wrong with them were abandoned, out of sheer panick. The boats were found later ,in good shape ,but not the crews. There is little truth in panick ,it is the abandonement of logic.

As I have pointed out many times, the stability curves of my boats are on the origamiboats site.


Did this boat lose her rig due to the all so common metal fatigue in "Yachty" stainless rigging ? Probably!
The small half inch thick plexi port on my boats dont blow out. Dainty, expensive yachty ones do.
Crew fatigue is not the designers or builders fault.
A good series drogue deployed in time from the stern quarter, reduces the chance of a knockdown to minimal . Was this done in this case? Probably not!
I have minimized the odds of injury while lying in my bunk during storms, by having a canvas security blanket attached at 4 corners to 3/8th inch eye bolts. Athwartships it is comfortably loose, but the edges, longitudinaly ,are tight . So, while it causes no discomfort whatever in my bunk, it eliminates the chance of being thrown out of my bunk in a knock down .
Winston pointed out another common source of crew injury ; overhead handrails, which frequently result in wrenched shoulders. Handrails at shoulder level cause no such problems .
If your hull survives ,you can deal with other problems, if your hull doesn't ,you dont have as many options. So the suggestion that you should accept a flimsy hull, and not build your hull too strong , because other bad things can happen ,is incredibly dense!
We spend a lot of thought on making the boat safe, but often too little to keeping the crew safe inside in rough weather

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 03-21-2014 at 03:09 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Brent- Have any of your boats gotten a PHRF rating? Id so please share. Please note your absence of answering basic questions by several people multiple times is also apparently viewed as deceptive by many.
I am unaware of any of my boats getting a PHRF rating, as they are owned by cruisers not racers. It would be interesting tho.
I remember a school teacher in the 70s designing building and racing his own boat. He rigged her with galvanized rigging made his own sails and had one sheet winch. When it came to rating they looked at his galv rigging , the fact that he designed her himself with no previous experince in the field, made his own sails etc etc, rolled their eyes and laughed sarcastically, and gave him a dead low rating. He beat the others boat for boat. So, still not believing that sommeone with so little qualifications couold get it right, and admiting that their prejudices could possibly be wroing, they raied his PHRF rating slightly . Again he beat them boat for boat. That went on for a while, while the experts could never admitt that their snobby prejudices could possibly be wrong . He basically raced against their snobby prejudices!
That could work for a brentboat as well , especially an aluminium one, given the blindness of the snobs' prejudice against them.

As I cruise full time ,often away from the internet (you know ,cruising and sailing, the pastime that so many here give endless advice on, while rarely ever doing it?) there is no way I can possibly answer or respond to every comment or question made here, being so greatly outnumbered by people who have nothing else to do. That would require me to be on line as much as they are , and give up cruising! No way! The quick response some of them have to my posts, is an indicator that they are on line full time, all the time, leaving them little time to get any experience in the subject they claim to be such experts in.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 03-21-2014 at 03:36 PM.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

That's too bad. My boat was built for and is owned by cruisers as well. They go ocean voyaging. Agreed miles travelled in a day is what counts to this crowd not PHRF rating. Still, it does have a PHFT rating- of 90. It also has extensive system of hand holds/grab rails at shoulder ( or lower ) height. Double safety glassed lights structurally much stronger than plexiglass which due to flexibility is much more prone to blow out. We have a JSD but unfortunately this doesn't totally prevent knockdowns or other untoward events. The rig has multiple redundancies to allow wide safety margins in storms. All these features are commonplace on any current GRP boat designed for blue water and not specific to my boat. In short the rule not the exception. Once again you fail to provide factual specific information- LPS,RM, GS curve so all your statements concerning safety at sea are viewed as deceptive.
SImple one my LPS is 127 what's your's?

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
As I have pointed out many times, the stability curves of my boats are on the origamiboats site.
Out, here are the "stability curves" from his site. As you can see by the note, they were posted from some dude who was playing with the software and a "simplified 3D model".

Quote:
New stability curve is available for SINGLE keel BS36 in file section.

AVS=180 deg, Max. Dynamic Heeling Angle ~120 deg.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origam...and_stability/

Based on 3D model. It still not perfect, but more accurate than last one (includes clarifications from Brent for foot well, cabin, pilothouse) and LEAD ballast.

Please note: this model has STEEL mast and boom.

REPLY FROM BRENT:
Up until 1984 , we used to cut a 5 1/2 inch sheer in the bulwark plate on the 36. Then I found out that the factory edge makes a good looking sheer , sio started using the factory edge. Some boats are still done with the cut sheer , as some prefer the more traditional sheer , even if it means giving up that much more interior space.
The stabilty curves posted are for the boat with the cut sheer, with about 5 1/2 inches less freeboard amidships. A stability curve with the new factory edge sheer will show a much higher ultimate stability angle. Raising the buoyancy of the cabin , wheelhouse( about ten thosand pounds of buoyancy) as well as the decks, will make a huge increase in ultimate stability.
Brent never has done one himself - he just shops this info around like it's real.

IMUSO, this is about as trustworthy a source as BS himself. So, no, there don't appear to be any valid stability curves for BS boats. Though you guys can judge much better than I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
As George worked for West Marine while building this boat, he probably got the nicked and dinged items ,which were perfectly good, but couldn't be sold for cosmetic reasons ,super cheap or free.
Got it. Thanks for the inside info, Brent. So, any buyers out there looking at this boat need to know that all the equipment listed is damaged and was gotten for free. Therefore, apparently the value of the boat is FAR less than the asking price. It actually might be a great deal for a cruiser who wants to bump into things. $3K-4K for a boat? Not bad.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Smack- Problem is g-d forbid owner actually wants to insure the boat they spent time and money on and go ocean voyaging ( which he says is target audience). With information provided I think they will have great difficulty. I don't see any CE-A or other certification. So I got to believe an owner would be faced with great difficulty getting insurance. So as pointed out by others info on web site not compatible with reality. Know for myself I would never take any boat, even a Brent Boat, out of sight of land without some factual reassurance it could handle severe weather. It's striking when I was looking at steel boat for myself these statistics where made available and generated in a professional manner that would be accepted by a third party. When I spoke with insurance brokers I was re assured there would be no major issue procuring insurance. As you know without insurance increasingly your cruising opportunities are becoming more and more limited as well as the inability to finance the boat. Even at 25k this is real money. Especially for those still working for a living and not living off the land.

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Reminds one of the 79 Fastnet, where boats with nothing wrong with them were abandoned, out of sheer panick. The boats were found later ,in good shape ,but not the crews. There is little truth in panick ,it is the abandonement of logic.

As I have pointed out many times, the stability curves of my boats are on the origamiboats site.


Did this boat lose her rig due to the all so common metal fatigue in "Yachty" stainless rigging ? Probably!
The small half inch thick plexi port on my boats dont blow out. Dainty, expensive yachty ones do.
Crew fatigue is not the designers or builders fault.
A good series drogue deployed in time from the stern quarter, reduces the chance of a knockdown to minimal . Was this done in this case? Probably not!
I have minimized the odds of injury while lying in my bunk during storms, by having a canvas security blanket attached at 4 corners to 3/8th inch eye bolts. Athwartships it is comfortably loose, but the edges, longitudinaly ,are tight . So, while it causes no discomfort whatever in my bunk, it eliminates the chance of being thrown out of my bunk in a knock down .
Winston pointed out another common source of crew injury ; overhead handrails, which frequently result in wrenched shoulders. Handrails at shoulder level cause no such problems .
If your hull survives ,you can deal with other problems, if your hull doesn't ,you dont have as many options. So the suggestion that you should accept a flimsy hull, and not build your hull too strong , because other bad things can happen ,is incredibly dense!
We spend a lot of thought on making the boat safe, but often too little to keeping the crew safe inside in rough weather
After reading Mr Halcrow's account of his abandonment, it would appear that little of your speculation is accurate... The guy is from the freakin' Shetland Islands, I expect he's sailed in a bit of weather before:

11 March 2014 : Elsi Arrub

Interestingly, not the first time he's had to abandon this boat:

Sail-World.com : 'Second time lucky' hopes for solo circumnavigating sailor



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