Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 425 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1721Likes
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #4241  
Old 04-03-2014
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,133
Thanks: 84
Thanked 78 Times in 72 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Try this one:
Where is that bow wake on that thing? That's pretty impressive!
Wulf likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
  #4242  
Old 04-03-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,355
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatMan22 View Post
Len, and I hope you don't mind me calling you Len, you completely missed my point. I can McGuyver with the best of them and do so on a regular basis, but I want to hear you guys tell me things I don't know,like how do you deal with heat dissipation from a hot metal deck to the cabin of the same type material, how about vibration dampening from a perkins or yanmar or whatever type diesel you're running on a metal frame boat, how did you formulate the sail area you needed to push a boat that heavy through the water, what about tinsel pull at the deck and mast and things like this. You're right I don't circumnavigate, probably never will, but I'm still curious about things I can't and probably won't do in life and the crazy thing is you have a captured audience waiting for to either dazzle us with brilliance or baffle us with bull crap and you refuse to take the cue. Hell dude I'm an easy sell, I sit through insurance seminars and come out going damn I didn't know that. I wasn't faulting you or Brent for reusing items I just don't need to read about diving in the dumpster behind NAPA and snagging an alternator, tell me about tack welding a hull when it's 42 degrees an what you do to make it all come together, tell me how you determined the girth and height of the mast or the length of the boom, tell me how you designed the steering apparatus, that my friend is what everyone that opened this thread is yearning for.
An inch and a half of urethane foam stops a lot of heat from coming thru. In my last boat the aft end was not insulated the forward half was. In Tahiti, walking from the insulated half to the uninsulated half was a noticeable difference in temperature. So since then ,I have always insulated the works.
Last trip to the tropics, crossing the equator was hot inside. Before coming back ,I painted the decks white. It was a huge difference in temperature, like adding air conditioning. Now , south of Baja, the hull gets painted white, along with the decks. That is why aluminiumn decks cant be left bare in the tropics. They will get so hot they will burn the soles off your feet. Bare aluminium hulls in the tropics will get just as hot. In the north, my dark green hull feels warm to the touch in sunlight, at minus 12 degrees celcius, with bright sunshine, keeping the lockers dry and free of mustiness they get when I leave the hull white.
I prefer to do all my building in the cooler months. I remember an Aussie wanting me to detail his hull in summer. The primer was long gone so it would have to be sandblasted any way. I told him to go to the recyclers and get some white paint, and paint it white with any kind of paint he could get free. He did that, and the hull felt cool to the touch in direct sunlight, while a sister hull next to it was so hot you could burn your hand on it. I saw some epoxy white primer made by awl grip, which could be used over gray zinc primer, to keep it cool during detailing, before final epoxy coating.

The key to minimizing vibration in a steel boat is to make the mounts as solid as you can , capable of a much larger engine than you intend to use. The more solid the mounts, the less vibration you get, and the smoother the engine will run.
Sail area is compared to that of other well performing boats of the same displacement . Its not weight alone which determines a boats performance offshore, but ratio of weight to sail area.
The outboard rudder on my boats makes self steering a simple as one can imagine, by allowing a trim tab mounted on the trailing edge of the rudder, hooked up directly to the vertical axis vane, via a simple linkage, which gives adjustable amount of negative feedback. ( Critical to prevent over steering) I also power the trimtab via a linkage from below decks for inside steering. This, I hook an autohelm up to, getting the autohelm out of the weather( they are nowhere near as waterproof as advertised)
Steel mast dimensions are based on what has worked well over many decades. Aluminium mast sections are based on what works on similar boats of the same size and displacement, with no problems over decades.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 04-03-2014 at 07:39 PM.
  #4243  
Old 04-03-2014
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,133
Thanks: 84
Thanked 78 Times in 72 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
So if your goal is to continue working, to throw money at a marina queen, while living anywhere but on a boat, rarely leaving the dock, and you value marina queen priorities over function, then Smack is your best source of advice.
Damn right!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
If your goal is to (be broke, bitter, and lonely) then Smack is the last source of advice you should allow to screw up your plans. He knows nothing about the subject, having no long term experience with the matter. That kind of advice you should only take from someone who has actually accomplished what you seek.
Damn right! Heh-heh.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-03-2014 at 11:56 PM.
  #4244  
Old 04-03-2014
CatMan22's Avatar
Bring On The Wind
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 252
Thanks: 5
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 3
CatMan22 is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
An inch and a half of urethane foam stops a lot of heat from coming thru. In my last boat the aft end was not insulated the forward half was. In Tahiti, walking from the insulated half to the uninsulated half was a noticeable difference in temperature. So since then ,I have always insulated the works.
Last trip to the tropics, crossing the equator was hot inside. Before coming back ,I painted the decks white. It was a huge difference in temperature, like adding air conditioning. Now , south of Baja, the hull gets painted white, along with the decks. In the north, the dark green hull feels warm to the touch in sunlight, at minus 12 degrees celcius, with bright sunshine, keeping the lockers dry and free of mustiness they get when I leave the hull white.,

Brent,

Thank you for adding a pertinent response.
__________________
S/V CatManDeux
Catalina 22

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"hark, now hear the sailors cry,
smell the sea, and feel the sky
let your soul & spirit fly, into the mystic..."
Van Morrison
  #4245  
Old 04-03-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,355
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Simple. It's because you're wrong. Pretty much always.



Well, someone in this thread certainly has years worth of experience making up quotes. You can see many of them here:

BS Yachts Marketing Program

I don't think any of us hold a candle to the vast amount of experience you have in this particular department.
I have responded to this post months ago, but Smack brings it up every time he loses an argument, and cant think of a response., When I get the time, I can go back and repost my response, and keep track of the date, so I can repost it every time Smack decides to repost his discredited post . That way we can occupy a large portion of this debate reposting his comments and my response ,over and over again, if that is what the moderators want this discussion to become. I feel I have as much right to respond to Smacks quoting out of context etc., games as he as to keep replaying them. Anything less would leave the reader less informed, and misinformed.
Or the moderators could simply delete such repeat posting of Smack's attacks on reality, and keep the debate flowing as it should.

When I mentioned donating a portion of my pension to the women's shelter, a safe place for spousal abuse victims to escape to, Smacks response was typical of that I get from wife beaters (Some of whom, I am told, are afraid to go out at night while I am around) His chosen Alias "Smackaddy " also points to the same conclusions.( Nice guy, or coward?)
When Steve Millar had sailed his Spencer 35 back to BC from New Zealand, he had far more cruising experience than either Smack or Bob will ever have. Being a doctor, in partnership with his brother, the BC chief medical officer at the time, he could have had any steel boat he wanted. He chose a brentboat 36 for his Cape Horn and Aleutian dreams. After many year s cruising BC, he had the confidence to sail her, with his son aboard to Mexico , Hawaii and home.
With that experience behind him, the boat gave him the confidence to sail her around Cape Horn and the Aleutians then back to BC. A boat with stability or structural problems doesn't give that kind of confidence, especially a doctor, with vast offshore cruising experience. He chose a brent boat based on far more cruising experience than armchair experts , Bob or Smack will ever have. It certainly doesn't go that far with out problems.
How far along that route would a Hunter or a Perry, or any stock plastic boat get with zero problems. Not far!
On BD.net, a heckler- designer , did his own stability calcultions, and said my 36 has an AVS of only 165 degrees. Another guy posted the AVS at 175 degrees on the origamiboats site. Bob said he considered 121 degrees AVS as "Good numbers."
On the origamiboats site, occupied by far more steel boat experience than Bob or Smack will ever have, his abysmal ignorance of steel became quickly obvious, and he quickly got laughed off the stage. Its only here,with only one person having any extensive experience in steel that he can aintain any sense of credibility . Even then, he has to constantly steer the conversation clear of steel, and post anything but, to avoid having his ignorance of the subject become so obvious.
People I know, who have had Bob design their boats, were very disappointed with the results .
A friend who has been cruising the South Pacific in a 36 ft brentboat, since the 90's , described a Hunter as being so bad as to make a Beneteau actually look compartively good. Some one like Smack, who would chose a Hunter or a Catalina is a piss poor judge of offshore boats .
Neither Bob nor Smack have any long term cruising experience.So if you want the kind of cruising they do, leaving your boat in a marina. visiting it occasionally to throw money at it, then going home to stock cookie cutter urban living in a house, working40 hours a week to pay for it,then they are your best source of advice. If you goal is to get off the treadmill, and spend more time cruising then they are completely ignorant of that subject, having never accomplished it.

Having more money coming in with my pension than I know how to spend, I have no need to market anything. I just enjoy helping people make their cruising dreams affordable and safer. Elitists don't want people to know what are their more affordable and safer options. Neither Bob Nor Smack have contributed a single thing to help people deal with the two biggest obstacles to realizing their cruising dreams; time and money .In fact they are dedicated to obstructing their attempts with expensive disinformation.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-16-2014 at 07:37 PM.
  #4246  
Old 04-03-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,355
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Been cruising, you know, that activity which boats are supposed to be about. Unlike some , I haven't spent the last couple of weeks siting in front of a computer, giving advice on something I rarely experience.
Internet access is shrinking in these islands.
Found it . Here's one response. More to come.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
  #4247  
Old 04-03-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,355
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
It's kinda hard for someone with zero steel boat experience and almost zero long term cruising or steel boat maintenance experience, to have much to offer in the way of "facts". It's also hard to believe any "Facts " presented by someone who makes up a random number for how many boats a builder has built , then claims its a more accurate number than the builder gives, or who takes a comment from a discussion of religion, and posts it as a comment about steel boats. One would be extremely unwise to consider ANYTHING from such a source as "Facts."
Here's another response.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
  #4248  
Old 04-03-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,647
Thanks: 1
Thanked 74 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Here's a fact:

You can't do that with steel. Composite construction gives me the freedom to design what I want and what the client wants.
There is a "bow wake" you just can't see it.
smackdaddy likes this.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
  #4249  
Old 04-03-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,355
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Your comments were that shape has no effect on stiffness, which is the equivalent of stating that a square propane tank is the same strength as a round one. You pressed a spline in the middle, then claimed that a longitudinal would also bulge out near the ends while welded, and thus contained inside a steel hull, the same way your spline out in the open did. Wynand definitely declared himself a racist and proud of it. He also joined the attack on framlessness ,and only later admitted he had built a framless 38 ft Dix design, posted on the origami boats site. You also supported the notion that the steel under my mast support pipes, 13 inches of 3/16th plate, would break before the 3 -5/16th windward shrouds would, and that could happen in the first 4 hours ,. something which hasn't happened in over 40 years.
I stand by all my comments on that site.
Here's another response to the loonieness Smack so worships on that site.
This is the kind of "Engineer", Smack and Bob believe should be making structural decisions. Did Smack believe I would type this up all over again, any time he reposted his loonie old post, quoting the nutbars at BD.net?

While Frankie may be capable of crossing oceans, so was the Kon Tiki. That doesn't make it a good choice for ocean cruising. A 60 footer with huge draft, and the interior space of a 30 footer, and no lifelines, would be a piss poor choice for long term ocean cruising. Don't expect a designer like Bob ,with almost zero long term ocean cruising experience, to understand that.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-16-2014 at 07:44 PM.
  #4250  
Old 04-03-2014
shank32095's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: salvador, brazil
Posts: 76
Thanks: 4
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 1
shank32095 is on a distinguished road
Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Very nice!!
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hunter 36 Pros and Cons? turfguy Hunter 15 3 Weeks Ago 05:08 PM
C & C 24 pros and cons chuckg Boat Review and Purchase Forum 11 04-06-2012 12:45 AM
Pros and Cons of Catalina 350?? turfguy C350 6 10-16-2009 05:17 PM
Watermakers—Pros and Cons Tom Wood Cruising Articles 0 06-11-2002 08:00 PM
Steel Hulls—Pros and Cons Sue & Larry Buying a Boat Articles 0 09-12-2001 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:01 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.