Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 444 - SailNet Community
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post #4431 of 5317 Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Woud be a nice day to sail, but will be in tacoma at the daffodil festival putting daffodils on two boats for a parade. One is a 1929 Lake Union Dreamboat. Beautiful old woodie.......alas a power woodie....but a BEAUTIFUL woodie none the less!

Have a good day bob!

Marty

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
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post #4432 of 5317 Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"Have a good day bob!

Marty"

I did have a good day Marty. It started around 6 am when I found out that I had a new grandson, Drake Shaw Perry. That was pretty exciting news. The gene pool is going to be just fine.

Then I went sailing on FRANCIS. I took my neighbor, a doctor, with us. John, the doctor, is an extremely intelligent guy and has done some sailing. I had this feeling that he would be able to comprehend just how unique and perfect FRANCIS is. It worked. When I told him to take the tiller he went into shock.

We sailed at 9 knots+ consistantly without any effort at all. We began hitting 10 knots and saw as much as 11.3 knots. All of this was in about 14 knots TWS. The boat is amazing. Delicate on the helm and eels great when it accelerates. With that much boat sped you are pulling the TWA forward all the time. It takes a while to get used to that.

The bad news is that with our aramid fibre backstay we are getting a harmonic hum at about 9.5 knots. We will address this with some "funny fixes" and if they don't work we will go to a Navtec rod backstay.

It was pretty eye opening to just zoom around the bay, play with the boats racing and then zoom off again with so little effort required.

I could get used to liking this boat.
"Fast is fun".

The really great news is that Kim's wonderful wife Susan came with us today. She was very comfortable. At one point, when my neighbor Dr. John was steering we wanted to jibe. Kim said, "a gentle jibe". I said, "Hell with that. Slam it over. I want to see what happens." John tried to slam it over but with 63' LOA to jibe the boat just slid through the jibe with no fuss and we had a ton of time to handle the main. When we had completed the jib Kim's wife said, Is that all there is to it?" Or something kind of like that. Susan is not sure she wants a dodger now. She likes the boat. (designer breathes sigh of relief.)

A very good day.
Welcome to earth Drake Shaw Perry.

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post #4433 of 5317 Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Bob
Could you post the stability curve for Frankie?

Frankie is only perfect for the use for which she was designed; day sailing around the bay. For the far flung cruising mentioned at the beginning of this debate, she is as useless as a one legged man trying to kick ass.
A low income cruiser could easily build a proper cruising boat and have a circumnavigation or two behind him, in far less time than it would take him to even begin paying for a boat like that. Frankie could never sail enough miles to make up for the time and money she wasted. She could never win, in terms of miles per year spent on her.

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post #4434 of 5317 Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

No BS. I will not post the stability curve. Because you are a jackass. Your previous comments on stability have been so stupid that I sincerely doubt you could interprit a true stability curve. You are a jerk who produces butt ugly boats and I choose not to show you my work. I am very willing to show it to anyone else.

I will happily PM the stability curve to anyone else here who wants to see it. Just ask. It is impressive. And what I find more impressive after today's sail is that the boat just feels stiff all the time. I expected more of a "soft spot" but the boat likes to sit at 15 degrees. I don't think we ever saw a heel angle in excess of 15 degrees.

I think that is clear.

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post #4435 of 5317 Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I think a stability curve of Frankie with her narrow beam, will clearly demonstrate the huge improvement of AVS to be gained by a narrow beam. I believe her AVS will be extremely high, compared to most super beamy, modern flush deckers, for exactly that reason.
A comparison of Frankies AVS with that of a wide beamed flush decker would be very informative.

If you don't like the stability curve of any boat, how do you improve it? Narrower beam . I've already done that on mine. She is very moderate in this respect. Or you can avoid flush decks and go higher on your cabin top camber. I have done that too ( as has Frankie). Or you can add a wheelhouse with over 3,000 lbs of buoyancy, the equivalent of adding thousands of pounds to the keel in the inverted position, along with a hatch capable of keeping water out in the inverted position. I have done that too.
So if you seek a boat with a high AVS, looking for all the above factors in a design will give you what you seek.
As for Bobs childish insults, that is just the booze talking. He is more rational sober, but who isn't?
Sad that stuff takes over so many lives.
Be careful with that stuff, Bob.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 04-15-2014 at 06:16 PM.
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post #4436 of 5317 Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainQuiet View Post
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
Here are the original questions. Big, super expensive, and in cruising terms, totally impractical day sailors like Frankie, have nothing to do with " far flung cruising, maybe even a circumnavigation."
I think I have done a far better job of answering his original questions, than the plastic and wooden boat advocates have, especially better than the advocates of hugely over sized and over priced, day sailors.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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post #4437 of 5317 Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
This looks like a good buy for someone wanting a steeler.

1996 Roberts Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
Nice lifelines. Nice wheelhouse. Nice bow roller.
Roberts with skeg hung rudders are suspect, as he said he designs skegs to fall off if they hit anything, in his book "The Complete Guide to Metal Boats"

It can be rectified, if this boat has that problem.

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post #4438 of 5317 Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"As for Bobs childish insults, that is just the booze talking. He is more rational sober, but who isn't?
Sad that stuff takes over so many lives.
Be careful with that stuff, Bob."

That's typical of you BS. You have zero design talent to show so you attack on a personal level. I made my first post right after I came home. No drinking involved. Even sober you are a jerk and a jackass. That's my personal attack. I suppose if you had a wife I could lower myself to your level an go after your wife like you did mine. But you are not that lucky and I am not that low.

When you have zero to show you try to deflect the argument to a personal level. That doesn't change anything. It sure doesn't produce "design work from BS" because you have none. You have angry words.

Here is what a designer does. He designs.

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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by sonsunmandelin View Post
reconize this boat, i have always wanted to meet you, your boats rock brent
Thanks
I remember building Pearl Song for Will. We built the shell on Quadra Island. Getting steel to Quadra was not all that expensive , but to Cortes, where Will and his family lived, was super expensive. So we turned the steel into a shell ( hull, decks, cabin, cockpit, keel rudder and skeg) in 12 days, and floated her over to Will's back yard on Cortes, where he finished her. Evan did his apprenticeship on her. Will and his family ( Wife and three kids, one in diapers) were picking clams for a living. He had just enough money for the shell. 5 years later they were cruising Mexico, an example of what can be done on a super low income.
I windjammed my last boat for several years on the BC coast, including the Gulf Islands and Tahiti, before putting an engine in her. One compensation for the glassy, windlessness of the Gulf |Islands, where one can spend days in an open anchorage without a breath of wind, is when the wind dies, no swell lasts for long.It quickly becomes a very comfortable glassy smooth, and you can throw light kedge out anywhere you can hit bottom. Another is it is never very far to the next fully protected anchorage. You can also go a long way in a glassy calm, by timing the currents.
When Will left Cabo , into a strong NW wind ,he covered 1066 miles in 6 days. He then broke the top 1/3rd off the box section of his wooden mast (using fittings I had warned him against) He still beat a Colvin Gazelle into Hawaii, which had left the same time as him ,by many days.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 04-15-2014 at 06:33 PM.
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post #4440 of 5317 Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Bob
Could you post the stability curve for Frankie?

Frankie is only perfect for the use for which she was designed; day sailing around the bay. For the far flung cruising mentioned at the beginning of this debate, she is as useless as a one legged man trying to kick ass.
A low income cruiser could easily build a proper cruising boat and have a circumnavigation or two behind him, in far less time than it would take him to even begin paying for a boat like that. Frankie could never sail enough miles to make up for the time and money she wasted. She could never win, in terms of miles per year spent on her.
After the highlighted first sentence your post becomes ludicrous Brent.

A Z06 Corvette would also make a lousy world cruising sailboat but "Is perfect for the use for which it was designed".

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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