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  #4441  
Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstern View Post
Mandelin: it looks like the forward edge of the coach house on Pearl is asymetrical; the starboard side is longer than the port side, and the front edge is angled. I thought it might be an optical illusion, but its apparent in both of the pics you posted here. How come?
We used the same plastic pattern for both cabin sides, so they are identical. Looking from one side can make things look different.
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  #4442  
Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Keep in mind that Will is the guy who claimed he once sculled for 11.5 hours straight.
But why let reality interfere with the picture. But he is an interesting character. Glad he finally got a boat that sails.

"We used the same plastic pattern for both cabin sides, so they are identical. Looking from one side can make things look different"

So they both look equally ugly? Great. Let's see the detailed drawing of those deck lines. I'll bet there are none. BS can not post drawings of those deck lines.
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Last edited by bobperry; 04-12-2014 at 08:20 PM.
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  #4443  
Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Doo:
No that is not my son. That is Will Porter a recent intern working in my office. Will is 16 years old and stayed with me for 16 vdays while I coached him on various aspects of design. If you go back a month in this thread you can read more about my work with Will.

My son Spike is the handsome, dark haired young man wearing armor in some pics.
Here is a pic of me with both of my sons.
Man, you don't look anything like Batman in that photo!
Wow, look at the beer belly on that old guy, pressing against his shirt! Could that be the karate guy, who claims he spends a lot of time working out in the dojo? So much for that claim! I wonder how many other claims he makes are as obviously false.
At any rate, despite karate being as useless as ballet dancing in self defense, it will help one defeat the one adversary most likely to kill us old guys ,health problems, due to inactivity.
So maybe that old guy should be working out as much as he claims to , in that form of "Japanese pyjama ballet dancing", called "Karate"!
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 04-16-2014 at 07:28 PM.
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  #4444  
Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Brent:

I worked for Charlie Wittholz. He had a wonderful eye and a strong sense of tradition. He really did seem to understand how boats behaved. Charlie worked for some of the greatest designers of all time, Alden, Rhodes, S&S and worked with and knew many of the 'household' name designers and builders.

Charlie designed the old fashion way, with very precise hand drafting, and carefully annotated hand calculations on note book paper, which were kept in a 'project notebook' and then filed at the end of the project. His weight and buoyancy calcs were complete and updated as decisions or changes were made.

His structural calculations were simple two-dimensional calculations; pretty much treating everything as simply supported beams and columns, which in itself added to the safety factor. He used standard scantling tables and recommended loadings from the usual sources. It was good conservative structural design.

His steel boats were usually (but not always) somewhat 'back engineered'. He designed most of his boats for wood, and then used the calculated loadings from the wood design to size the steel frames and skin. Because the framing and plating was heavier on the steel boats, they typically had less ballast and sail area. As compromse, at least on the smaller designs (under 40 feet), in order to keep the weight of the steel structure and plating in a reasonable range, the safety factors were reduced and so the wooden boats were usually designed a little stronger and stiffer than the steel boats.

Charlie did build a few wooden boats, but he never actually built a steel boat with his own hands. While Charlie designed a lot of steel boats, he only owned one steel boat and that was near the end of his life. He did not keep it very long.

I think if Charlie was still alive he would probably design the way that Bob does, meaning very careful calculations performed using computer software to make the calculations a lot easier and more precise.

Jeff
Charlie's boats are simple and practical single chine hulls with a midship section and deadrise very similar to mine. They have a lot in common with my boats. He doesn't draw super complex and hard to build shapes, then tell his clients "Achieving that shape is your problem." His boats are simple and practical, the way cruising boats should be. They are easy to build.
I also did all my calculations on paper, as affordable computers were not available back then.
Time and decades of experience are far more accurate predictors than theory.
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  #4445  
Old 04-12-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

I am not Batman. Batman is my mother in law's cousin. His real name is Bill Anderson and he is from Walla Walla Washington. His screen name is Adam West. I chose that avatar because I liked it. You can find pics of me in many places.

Not at all sure why you should care. But the gene pool is healthy tonight with the arrival of Drake Shaw Perry. I see big things ahead for Drake. I am a very happy grand parent.
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  #4446  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Isn't it grand being a grandpa. It means you survived all your prior foolishness and now have an excuse to behave foolishly with a child as of yet unspoiled by this deprived world. Congrats
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  #4447  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Out:
I'm not sure yet. I'm going to have to figure this out.
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  #4448  
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Frankie is only perfect for the use for which she was designed; day sailing around the bay.
Just like BS Yachs are only perfect for two things: losing your mind in the squalid loneliness and anger of a cold steel tank, or losing your small nest egg on a rusting hulk and hitting stuff.

I prefer sailing.

Brent, your boats are to sailboats what these are to sports cars:



Functional? Sure. Maintenance? Minimal. And just think of all the gas you'll save and how small your footprint will be!
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-12-2014 at 11:54 PM.
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  #4449  
Old 04-13-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Bob
Could you post the stability curve for Frankie?

Frankie is only perfect for the use for which she was designed; day sailing around the bay. For the far flung cruising mentioned at the beginning of this debate, she is as useless as a one legged man trying to kick ass.
A low income cruiser could easily build a proper cruising boat and have a circumnavigation or two behind him, in far less time than it would take him to even begin paying for a boat like that. Frankie could never sail enough miles to make up for the time and money she wasted. She could never win, in terms of miles per year spent on her.
Actually Mr. Swain you have that one wrong. The Francis Lee was engineered by one of the best marine engineers in the business Tim Nolan with help from the excellent Jim Franken.

She is engineered to easily and safely sail offshore. She far exceeds ABS standards. Her considerable speed would just add to her safety.

As far as wasting money on her, once again you are wrong. It was very easy for me to pay for her and she will easily be worth her cost many times over.....to ME.

She would not be worth it to YOU but that's OK, she was not built for you.

Stick to what you know, your boats......

and please refrain from commenting on vessels and people of whom you know nothing. You know nothing about the Francis Lee and you know nothing about me or my resources.

Thank you.
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Think Kim got it just right. We buy and build boats just for us. Paulo at one time hit on me fairly hard that I spent my hard earned money building a boat that was originally designed a decade ago. He implied given it did not incorporate design features such as ultra wide stern, twin rudders and hard chines it was foolish to spend so much money when the sums involved would have allowed purchase of the latest creation. What he failed to recognize is fundamentally the same thing Brent fails to consider. The boat is about the owner (for Bob the client). A successful boat meets the purpose the owner will put it to and leaves him/her smiling as they row away. I wanted something that sailed fast. Fast is different for a buoy racer, than for a passage maker. Fast is different for a full crew, or professional singlehanded racer than a mom and pop. Fast is different for someone thinking about a "days work" than a sailing polar. Similarly comfort, ease of maintenance, durability, safety and like concerns are different depending what purpose the owner has in mind. I'm sure Kim got it just right for him. He had Bob to work with. It's a beautiful craft. Would I want Kim's boat for my purpose? No. I feel I got it just right for my purpose. That may change when I see the voyager version Bob drew but I think not as I like aft cockpits and traditional looking houses.
?Always wondered why lapstrake isn't employed in metal boats? Admittedly would involve a lot more welding but would allow more complex shapes and provide rigidity so fewer or no longitudinal frames would be needed. ?Any reason besides additional labor?
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Last edited by outbound; 04-13-2014 at 09:22 AM.
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