Pros and cons of steel sailboats - Page 448 - SailNet Community
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post #4471 of 5317 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by shank32095 View Post
Bob,

First congrats on the little guy! A while back you commented on obtaining stability calculations on my new boat Crusoe. I have been unable to contact the builder but maybe you can take a quick look at this informative piece I pulled up on the web on stability curves. Crusoe is 25 tonnes draws 3 meters and the keel ballast is 4.5 tonnes. Length 17 meters and the beam somewhat narrow at 4 meters. (A couple pics below). Question is where would you place the boat between the A to D per the article below.

Understanding monohull sailboat stability curves | M.B. Marsh Marine Design





Thanks as I am clueless to calculations such as this.

TS
The shape of my hulls is much closer to hull B, with a similar AVS. That is why I avoided excessive beam .

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post #4472 of 5317 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by kimbottles View Post
Actually Mr. Swain you have that one wrong. The Francis Lee was engineered by one of the best marine engineers in the business Tim Nolan with help from the excellent Jim Franken.

She is engineered to easily and safely sail offshore. She far exceeds ABS standards. Her considerable speed would just add to her safety.

As far as wasting money on her, once again you are wrong. It was very easy for me to pay for her and she will easily be worth her cost many times over.....to ME.

She would not be worth it to YOU but that's OK, she was not built for you.

Stick to what you know, your boats......

and please refrain from commenting on vessels and people of whom you know nothing. You know nothing about the Francis Lee and you know nothing about me or my resources.

Thank you.
If God, Buddha , Jesus, Mohammed, ABS, and Allah all decreed that a wooden boat is as strong and safe as steel one, in an open ocean collision with a container, they would all be just as wrong!
ABS approves many boats which are a fraction the strength and safety of the average home built steel boat, especially mine.
No boat engineered without lifelines is properly engineered for safety offshore. You should definitely follow Bob's advice on that point. Without proper lifelines, she is just a big harbour daysailor, and an unsafe one at that..
My reference was to the original question in this debate, which had nothing do with wooden boats, or babies.
When some don't understand the subject, they try to change the subject.
That is an admission that they don't understand the subject.

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Last edited by Brent Swain; 04-15-2014 at 06:09 PM.
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post #4473 of 5317 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Think Kim got it just right. We buy and build boats just for us. Paulo at one time hit on me fairly hard that I spent my hard earned money building a boat that was originally designed a decade ago. He implied given it did not incorporate design features such as ultra wide stern, twin rudders and hard chines it was foolish to spend so much money when the sums involved would have allowed purchase of the latest creation. What he failed to recognize is fundamentally the same thing Brent fails to consider. The boat is about the owner (for Bob the client). A successful boat meets the purpose the owner will put it to and leaves him/her smiling as they row away. I wanted something that sailed fast. Fast is different for a buoy racer, than for a passage maker. Fast is different for a full crew, or professional singlehanded racer than a mom and pop. Fast is different for someone thinking about a "days work" than a sailing polar. Similarly comfort, ease of maintenance, durability, safety and like concerns are different depending what purpose the owner has in mind. I'm sure Kim got it just right for him. He had Bob to work with. It's a beautiful craft. Would I want Kim's boat for my purpose? No. I feel I got it just right for my purpose. That may change when I see the voyager version Bob drew but I think not as I like aft cockpits and traditional looking houses.
?Always wondered why lapstrake isn't employed in metal boats? Admittedly would involve a lot more welding but would allow more complex shapes and provide rigidity so fewer or no longitudinal frames would be needed. ?Any reason besides additional labor?
The original question was not about speed in round the buoys racers, and big day sailors like Frankie.
Lapstrake would be a huge waste of time and money. You can easily get well rounded chineless bows and sterns, giving them the same strength as you would get by making them lapstrake, with a fraction the time , expense and potential welding distortion , as my boats clearly demonstrate. Radiusing the chine amidships is not all that hard .
It takes me about ten minutes per longitudinal to put them in. I use no more than ten. It wouldn't make sense to spend the huge amount of extra time and welding to go lapstrake, to save the tiny amount of time it takes to put logitudinals in.
You definitely got it right on, when you say fast is different for singlehanded ocean cruisers. Some racing boats ,which slow down when tacking around the buoys, have been said to have "Excess directional stability"!
There is no such thing as 'Excess directional stability" for a single handed ocean cruiser. The more the better. Good directional stability in a cruiser means not having to reduce sail to maintain self steering.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"

Last edited by Brent Swain; 04-15-2014 at 06:41 PM.
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post #4474 of 5317 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
That line of BS's something to the effect, frankie is only good for what she is designed for......well, that was SUPPOSED to be a bash......but looks like a WEL HIDDEN compliment to me.

When I did a lot more designing of landscapes, I too never did the same design, nor the same materials EVERY time. ALL of my clients like bob, wanted something a bit different. May have been colors of the pavers, wall block, pattern of the above, types of plants, amount of lawn vs beds vs ___________.

I would consider that line by bs to be a compliment myself.

I had a good day in Tacoma, playing with daffodils and putting on a boat......not sure BS would understand that fun either.....

Then below is a copy and paste from an FB page of what my eldest are up to. Youngest tagged along this time for some vacation........

Marty
I get a kick out of that thing called "Landscapers fantasy!" Its where they make a complex, artsy fartsy, winding path, on the assumption that everyone will take a long and winding route , just to stay on the path, if that is what the landscaper decrees. Instead, they end up with a well worn path, the shortest route across the lawn, as they ignore an impractical path.

Some boat designs are done the same way. Real practical cruisers ignore the impractical parts, and do what works best, leaving the impractical ones on the beach, going to work,. stocking shelves for decades, to pay for impractical boats and their gear, trying to figure out how the practical ones got out cruising so quickly and affordably, while decreeing that they are "Doing it all wrong!".

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post #4475 of 5317 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

The slope of the front of my cabin is slightly less than that of the Frankie, and very similar to other Bob designs.

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post #4476 of 5317 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

"The slope of the front of my cabin is slightly less than that of the Frankie, and very similar to other Bob designs."

So what Brent. That is the only thing your decks and mine have in common. Don't fool yourself.

How about posting some deck lines? Maybe I'll post the deck lines for FRANCIS and raise the bar a bit. It's a cool drawing. Give me a few minutes. I'll be right back. Just finishing Mahler's 3rd.

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post #4477 of 5317 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I am not Batman. Batman is my mother in law's cousin. His real name is Bill Anderson and he is from Walla Walla Washington. His screen name is Adam West. I chose that avatar because I liked it. You can find pics of me in many places.

]
Some of your posts sound like something right out of the "Batroom!"

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post #4478 of 5317 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Sorry. I got distracted when my wife called me. Two grey whales were swimming past the shack about 120' off the beach. It's a awesome sight. My young dog goes nuts.


Ok, this is a typical deck lines plan. This of course is FRANCIS and it is quite a simple deck. In the old days you would have to loft this on the floor full size and make your patterns from the lofting Then we graduated to full size patterns plotted from the computer on my plotter machine in 24" wide strips. This is why you don;t see a lot of dimensions on the drawing. With full size patterns, dimensions are redundant. Now we just send a file to a company who CNC cuts the templates for the plug. Or, we convert the 2D deck lines to a 3D model and have a 5 axis machine cut the exact deck, male or female model from foam and that becomes our mold. But without a drawing like this any designer is fooling themselves if they think they are designing a deck or even remotely controlling the shapes of a deck. I apologize that the resolution is not better but this drawing is 6' long. This is what a designer does. He or she designs.

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post #4479 of 5317 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
After the highlighted first sentence your post becomes ludicrous Brent.

A Z06 Corvette would also make a lousy world cruising sailboat but "Is perfect for the use for which it was designed".
The original question was a boat for a sailing version of a cruising "off road" vehicle. What he got was people advocating the use of the sailing equivalent of a Corvette, for off road (Logging road ) use!

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post #4480 of 5317 Old 04-15-2014
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Life is thread drift Brent. Get used to it. Besides being "off the road" capable has zero to do with looking crude. Crude is crude on and off the road. There are lots of great looking steel boats. I'd like to see more of them here.

The Mercedes answer to the Land Rover is a beautiful car.

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Last edited by bobperry; 04-15-2014 at 07:08 PM.
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